GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

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Was skimming older pages. Overlooked this reply from several months ago.


The riverlands were a kingdom for thousands of years. The definition of a kingdom is a territory under a king. The riverlands were ruled by the King of the Trident.

The last native river king was Damon Teague. House Teague was ruined by House Durrandon from the Stormlands. House Durrandon ran the Trident until they were defeated by House Hoare of the Ironborn.

The Riverlands


King of the Trident



The Targaryens did not create the riverlands, bro.
You're missing the whole "at the time of Aegons Conquest" part.

When Aegon got there, it was Seven Kingdoms. North, Mountain & Vale, Isles and Rivers, The Rock, The Reach, Storm and Dorne.

The Targaryens did not create the riverlands, bro.
Seven Kingdoms at the time of his conquest with the Riverlands not being one of them. Nine Kingdoms after his conquest with the Riverlands being one of them.

Hmmmm.
 

Feanor

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You're missing the whole "at the time of Aegons Conquest" part.

When Aegon got there, it was Seven Kingdoms. North, Mountain & Vale, Isles and Rivers, The Rock, The Reach, Storm and Dorne.

Seven Kingdoms at the time of his conquest with the Riverlands not being one of them. Nine Kingdoms after his conquest with the Riverlands being one of them.

Hmmmm.
We need Sylas to chime in.
 
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Chris

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Houses Bracken and Blackwood used to be petty kings of their part of The Riverlands, so that's 11 Kingdoms now. I'm not including ancient kingdoms.

My point is it was seven kingdoms during the conquest (excluding riverlands as it was part of iron islands with Harrenhal as cspital) and nine administrative regions now (including riverlands as reward for them aiding the conquest and crownlands for the capital).
 

Feanor

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It's still obvious the Iron Islands are included as a technicality. Aegon would have conquered them separately had the stormlands, the Vale, the Reach or the Rock been in charge of the central riverlands at the time. The Ironborn do not share the same gods of Westeros or any of the same customs. They are an 'eighth kingdom' by all natural accounts.
 

Chris

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It's still obvious the Iron Islands are included as a technicality. Aegon would have conquered them separately had the stormlands, the Vale, the Reach or the Rock been in charge of the central riverlands at the time. The Ironborn do not share the same gods of Westeros or any of the same customs. They are an 'eighth kingdom' by all natural accounts.
No that's your opinion.

How do you explain Dorne and The North having different gods and/or customs? Obviously he should have taken The North separately!
 
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Feanor

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Oh I'm not arguing that the seven kingdoms aren't technically the ones you say (north, west, storm, reach, vale, iron/river, dorne, for the record). I'm outright saying the only reason the Iron Isles are included is cos they were in charge of the riverlands during Aegon's Conquest. Take that away and the ironborn haven't got shit. You're also making my point for me: The old gods of the North are part of Westerosi culture. Godswoods, for example. Like the North, Dorne has its own particular variations of Westerosi customs. But they follow the Seven. So it's all kind of the same shit give or take, and I was aware of that discrepancy when I posted last time. At least you picked up on it. While the ironborn worship a strange god and share no Westerosi customs, not one.

You know that it's true the 'real' seven kingdoms are north, west, storm, reach, vale, river, dorne and the iron islands are separate. If you asked anybody who watched the show but knew nothing of lore they would say the same. Then you would have to go, "Ackshually..." because it's a technicality, man. Don't be a pedantic moonbat. No one gives a shit either way.
 

Chris

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Oh I'm not arguing that the seven kingdoms aren't technically the ones you say (north, west, storm, reach, vale, iron/river, dorne, for the record). I'm outright saying the only reason the Iron Isles are included is cos they were in charge of the riverlands during Aegon's Conquest. Take that away and the ironborn haven't got shit. You're also making my point for me: The old gods of the North are part of Westerosi culture. Godswoods, for example. Like the North, Dorne has its own particular variations of Westerosi customs. But they follow the Seven. So it's all kind of the same shit give or take, and I was aware of that discrepancy when I posted last time. At least you picked up on it. While the ironborn worship a strange god and share no Westerosi customs, not one.

You know that it's true the 'real' seven kingdoms are north, west, storm, reach, vale, river, dorne and the iron islands are separate. If you asked anybody who watched the show but knew nothing of lore they would say the same. Then you would have to go, "Ackshually..." because it's a technicality, man. Don't be a pedantic moonbat. No one gives a shit either way.

Again you are saying that your own headcanon interpretation is obvious when it isn't.

People who watched the show and don't know the lore will say Riverlands is a Kingdom over Iron Islands? What the fuck! How much screen time have Tullys had vs Greyjoys and how many seasons has Riverlands being an independant entity had on the plot vs Iron Islands? Greyjoys/Iron Islands have been important in several seasons while the Tullys were important in one. Even the Arryns/Vale armies are important in more seasons! How many times was Riverrun on the opening map... once or twice?

I'm lost with you mentioning culture, religion and customs. We don't know shit about half the kingdoms, the story takes place mostly in North/Crownlands/Riverlands. For all we know everyone in The Reach is gay. Iron Islands doesn't seem more alien than Dorne (different customs) or even The North (different religion).

There's probably a better case for excluding Dorne since Aegon didn't conquer it.
 

Feanor

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I would say that is a good case for excluding Dorne, too. But let's agree on what rules we are using. The title of Seven Kingdoms comes from the existing seven kingdoms at the time of Aegon's arrival. Which is why Dorne and the Iron Islands are two of the seven. That is technically correct. I'm saying viewers would not automatically know "the place with the fish sigil" was not one of the kingdoms. That is not head canon, that is a reasonable assumption. In order to know that the riverlands were not a kingdom during the conquest one would need to look it up, such as reading the books including The World of Ice and Fire.

You said the riverlands was never a kingdom, which was incorrect. You also said the Targaryens created the riverlands, which was also incorrect. At any rate, man, you are better at discussing minutiae than Sylas who would have lost his shit by now.
 

Chris

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I would say that is a good case for excluding Dorne, too. But let's agree on what rules we are using. The title of Seven Kingdoms comes from the existing seven kingdoms at the time of Aegon's arrival. Which is why Dorne and the Iron Islands are two of the seven. That is technically correct. I'm saying viewers would not automatically know "the place with the fish sigil" was not one of the kingdoms. That is not head canon, that is a reasonable assumption. In order to know that the riverlands were not a kingdom during the conquest one would need to look it up, such as reading the books including The World of Ice and Fire.

You said the riverlands was never a kingdom, which was incorrect. You also said the Targaryens created the riverlands, which was also incorrect. At any rate, man, you are better at discussing minutiae than Sylas who would have lost his shit by now.
Targaryens did create The Riverlands as reward for Tullys helping them. If it had existed previously pre Iron Islands takeover I may be wrong on, it was hardly the main pillar of my argument though.

You are arguing from the negative case "why wouldn't it be a kingdom", that doesn't work because why isn't the place with a bridge sigil a kingdom? What about the place with a giant castle? What about Stannis island?

You need to say why people would say that it is a kingdom. Riverlands hasn't really been shown as a distinct entity like Dorne/Iron Islands/North have, which is kinda the point, it's a halfway between everywhere place. Really the show focuses on the great houses and regular viewers wouldn't even know what The Westerlands are, even though they are the main antagonists of the show.

If you asked the regular viewer to name the great houses you'd have more success but I don't think they ever showed the Tullies to be more powerful than the Freys. They were second rate even in the books.
 

Xarpolis

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The BluRay for season 7 came in the mail today. It's nice. But it also came with an extra bonus. On a separate bluray there was a History of the Seven Kingdoms animated film. 45 minutes long.
It was titled Game of Thrones: Conquest & Rebellion
 

Feanor

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Targaryens did create The Riverlands as reward for Tullys helping them. If it had existed previously pre Iron Islands takeover I may be wrong on, it was hardly the main pillar of my argument though.
Targaryens created the title of Lord Paramount and reinstated the dominion. Riverrun itself for instance had already existed for a thousand years.
You are arguing from the negative case "why wouldn't it be a kingdom", that doesn't work because why isn't the place with a bridge sigil a kingdom?
Because the Freys are the Tullys' bannermen and the Twins are in the riverlands. Your question is rhetorical but any half attentive viewer would learn that as early as season 1.
You need to say why people would say that it is a kingdom. Riverlands hasn't really been shown as a distinct entity like Dorne/Iron Islands/North have, which is kinda the point, it's a halfway between everywhere place. Really the show focuses on the great houses and regular viewers wouldn't even know what The Westerlands are, even though they are the main antagonists of the show.

If you asked the regular viewer to name the great houses you'd have more success but I don't think they ever showed the Tullies to be more powerful than the Freys. They were second rate even in the books
Viewers do know of the Rock, it's been mentioned repeatedly.

Additional information outside of the show is not required for the above. All you have to do is watch the show. It's all there. That goes straight to my point. In order for even the most attentive viewer to learn that the Iron Islands conquered the riverlands before Aegon arrived, you would have to go outside the show. Either to wikis, the animated special features, or the books, etc. I don't even think that information was fully available till twoiaf was published, which was only three years ago.

That was Martin convolutin' like a motherfucker in order to emulate a more realistic historical complexity and probably to involve the ironborn and make them more substantial as characters.

In either case there is no denying the Iron Islands is officially one of the seven kingdoms.
 
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Chris

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Targaryens created the title of Lord Paramount and reinstated the dominion. Riverrun itself for instance had already existed for a thousand years.

Because the Freys are the Tullys' bannermen and the Twins are in the riverlands. Your question is rhetorical but any half attentive viewer would learn that as early as season 1.

Viewers do know of the Rock, it's been mentioned repeatedly.

Additional information outside of the show is not required for the above. All you have to do is watch the show. It's all there. That goes straight to my point. In order for even the most attentive viewer to learn that the Iron Islands conquered the riverlands before Aegon arrived, you would have to go outside the show. Either to wikis, the animated special features, or the books, etc. I don't even think that information was fully available till twoiaf was published, which was only three years ago.

That was Martin convolutin' like a motherfucker in order to emulate a more realistic historical complexity and probably to involve the ironborn and make them more substantial as characters.

In either case there is no denying the Iron Islands is officially one of the seven kingdoms.
I think this is an interesting discussion, intentional vagueness for historical complexity is a great insight.

We are both conflating country, fortress, title and house a lot here. That's fine the average viewer would do this and usually it doesn't matter. Is it Lannisters, or Westerlands, or The Rock or Warden of the West?

Riverlands is treated with much less respect, until last season the Lord Paramount of the Trident was Baelish, the military power were the Freys, the main castle is probably Harrenhal but you can still argue for Riverrun.... now they have nothing.

With this sort of conflation you must see that the Greyjoy characters would be named before Tully or even Arryn characters. I think the attentive show only viewer naming the great houses would actually get to nine and be confused.
 
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Feanor

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I think this is an interesting discussion, intentional vagueness for historical complexity is a great insight.

We are both conflating country, fortress, title and house a lot here. That's fine the average viewer would do this and usually it doesn't matter. Is it Lannisters, or Westerlands, or The Rock or Warden of the West?

Riverlands is treated with much less respect, until last season the Lord Paramount of the Trident was Baelish, the military power were the Freys, the main castle is probably Harrenhal but you can still argue for Riverrun.... now they have nothing.

With this sort of conflation you must see that the Greyjoy characters would be named before Tully or even Arryn characters. I think the attentive show only viewer naming the great houses would actually get to nine and be confused.
I can see people remembering Greyjoys over the riverrun characters, sure. Though they vanished for a couple seasons they are at the forefront again with Dany's arc and Euron.

You also made a good point mentioning how the riverlands are at the center. It is believable they would have to defend themselves constantly. A reaving culture like the ironborn's would have easily fucked their shit up.
 

pharmakos

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If it goes on for too long then we shall require them each watch Season 5 10 times back to back. If they survive that and continue then we'll throw in season 4 and 6.

no, not season five as a whole -- just the Sand Snake scenes and the Arya scenes.