Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
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Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
- Start date
boils down to development time spent. is it better to spend a month designing and implementing a mini game or spend that month working on major aspects of the game? WoW was smart/lucky in leaving a super customizable UI, things like peggle, bejeweled, etc show up.Bloodget said:
This speaks directly to the conversation we had earlier. There is a cost to everything, directly or indirectly. Time "better spent" on one thing, is time not spent on another.findar said:
The key is to have people that are focused and understand where the best bang for the buck is, where time should be spent.
That"s where it really comes down to focus, and having people like Jason and Travis not allow the team, or more importantly ME, veering off course and remaining focused on what the goals are/were.
The dev cycle is so long that you can absolutely stray from your goals and targets the farther from your initial design meetings and vision planning sessions you get, and having people on board that always have those things at the front of their minds is huge.
Then you have people like Gavian on the execution side, who understand how to take those docs and get the team actually making the stuff.
Genjiro
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Well time = money, and increasing your staff size to include people to develop things like this is what the "haves" can do where the "have nots" have to focus on the meat and potatoes of the game. You can look at a game like CoH and see a direct increase of the fluff stuff (which means a lot to some people) once NCSoft ponied up some cash and increased the size of their dev team from a barebones staff which allowed them to fix some non-critical items people had been clamoring for and to work more on side items and other things that people wanted for a long time. Every feature you can include (which a large number of players enjoy) which another game cannot, is just another check in the column of what would get some people to play game A over game B.
Until I entered this industry I was always under the impression that when you had a production problem, you threw more people at it.
Come to find out it doesn"t work that way. There are many instances where that creates a larger subset of problems than the one it"s trying to solve. More people does not = more work, more success. It can create more problems, a worse product and less productivity.
It"s about the right people on the right problems, finding the right solutions. It always comes back to the people. In that sense the die is cast for 38, and that"s far from a bad thing.
Given who"s here, what they"re doing, and what they"ve done so far it"s the main reason I have so much hope for the potential of Copernicus the IP as I do.
Come to find out it doesn"t work that way. There are many instances where that creates a larger subset of problems than the one it"s trying to solve. More people does not = more work, more success. It can create more problems, a worse product and less productivity.
It"s about the right people on the right problems, finding the right solutions. It always comes back to the people. In that sense the die is cast for 38, and that"s far from a bad thing.
Given who"s here, what they"re doing, and what they"ve done so far it"s the main reason I have so much hope for the potential of Copernicus the IP as I do.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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I would imagine the point behind mini-games and other similar "fluff" features is that although they may have a high up front cost in terms of development, down the road you get insane returns from it. Simplest example is things like non-combat pets and mounts in WoW. Took some time to implement properly. But now it"s a relatively simple matter to create new mounts/pets and depending on how they add them you either generate a ridiculous amount of cash (TCG/Blizzcon pets/etc...) for little to no effort or introduce incentives in games for players to push themselves (hard modes for mounts) or simply add a ton of gameplay for the collectors out there.
Same can be said of the achievement system. Huge upfront cost. Now they can add new achievements with little effort.
This is as opposed to say things like raid zones. Huge cost, huge immediate return, but let"s be honest aside from the handful of people going back to do achievements molten core isn"t exactly a selling point to the game anymore.
You obviously need a healthy balance of both to keep the game from getting stale. Saying "There is a cost to everything..." like some ominous shit is fine and dandy. But if it didn"t pay off in the end nobody would pay the cost in the first place.
Same can be said of the achievement system. Huge upfront cost. Now they can add new achievements with little effort.
This is as opposed to say things like raid zones. Huge cost, huge immediate return, but let"s be honest aside from the handful of people going back to do achievements molten core isn"t exactly a selling point to the game anymore.
You obviously need a healthy balance of both to keep the game from getting stale. Saying "There is a cost to everything..." like some ominous shit is fine and dandy. But if it didn"t pay off in the end nobody would pay the cost in the first place.
James
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Exactly. Been waiting for a decent MMO in game card game for years. It was yet another feature that could have turned it around for EQ2, but Smed or another exec saw the dollar signs. I was massively hyped when I first heard about it, but just as disappointed when I found out that it was a pay to play thing, with minute amounts of card packs dropping in game.Zehn - Vhex said:
I would imagine most folks who got burned by the Vanguard experience remember the Diplomacy system as something that could have been revolutionary.
Imagine in EQ2 if, when you beat any mob or boss you got a % chance at getting the card of that mob. Then you could head to an Inn and swap cards, play against NPC"s, maybe play against other players. Perhaps get small buffs to your play by consuming alcohol.
Development houses lovingly create zones and quests that will not see even a small percentage of the interest they expect/hope for. The majority of folk will burn through it, only remembering which quests gave the best rewards.
Systems like this, though, that are fun and addictive, are the extras that tomorrows MMO"s need to achieve longevity. This is why no.4 on my short list of MMO "must haves" is "More fun hooks". Once there are four or five WoWs on the market dev houses will not be able to get expansions or custom content out fast enough to maintain subs. This is why I am so much behind random generated dungeons and missions, job systems (oh no I di"unt!) et al.
Zehn is spot on.
Really, I"d differentiate between development and a production issue. In dev, if you can segregate tasks to allow great compartmentilization you can get good returns for more people. If, and only if, you have them at a high level across the board.Ngruk said:
For production support in a real environment you want a Guru for any particular issue.
Finally, most importantly, Is it too late to fire Salvatore and hire George RR Martin to do the rest of the story?
Why would we want to fire RA? He"s created this insanely,insanely, awesome world we"re playing in now.
Besides, to get George to write we"d need to hire another 11,000 character artists to create the assets needed for a Martin MMO....
Besides, to get George to write we"d need to hire another 11,000 character artists to create the assets needed for a Martin MMO....
A bit tongue in cheek there.
I like Salvatore"s work, but I love the unpredictability and fun of reading A Song of Ice and Fire. I"d love to see that in a game, and I think Salvatore"s fantasy is a bit more rote and predictable.
Then again, if you hired Martin, your schedule would have to be delayed a few decades
I like Salvatore"s work, but I love the unpredictability and fun of reading A Song of Ice and Fire. I"d love to see that in a game, and I think Salvatore"s fantasy is a bit more rote and predictable.
Then again, if you hired Martin, your schedule would have to be delayed a few decades
One thing I can assure you, without giving anything content wise away, is that this will be as far from predictable as you could imagine.
I know you guys are doing a new IP, but in considering Salvatore further, I"d love to see him design and help mesh out an AD&D MMO world.
His novels are a great fantasy fluff read, but his descriptions and imaginings of the Drow underworld are amazingly well done and would translate wonderfully into an MMO.
His novels are a great fantasy fluff read, but his descriptions and imaginings of the Drow underworld are amazingly well done and would translate wonderfully into an MMO.
Trust me if the barriers to making that happen weren"t ridiculous in capital and nightmarish in IP laws/rules/regs it would have been choice #1.
Bringing the Drow city alone to life in an MMO would have been worth it ten times over.
Bringing the Drow city alone to life in an MMO would have been worth it ten times over.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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You are right. Let"s toss the right people at the right solutions for the wrong problems at the right time and we can have the right meetings that will solve the wrong problems with the right people. Toss the dice and let"s hope it"s an eleven or seven and we can win at the right time. Thumbs up.Ngruk said:
That was the biggest pile of bullshit spin I have seen from you yet. In one page you have gone from talking about Sid Meier games, to World War Two (Oh hey, another popular topic among gamers - shocking) and driving it right back to your fucking product. Which sucks ass.
Here is something you fuckers don"t know that I just got in a PM. Before Curt starting posting here, he analyzed the traffic of which boards were highest in the market he was targeting. Guess what he found. So he started. And you homosexual tyrannsaurses bought right into it.
He doesn"t give a rats ass about games you are playing, or he is playing, (As shown in that really fucking pitiful attempt which was probably written by his publicist) He cares about promoting his product. Period. A product which is now in ramp up of a marketing stage but yet the "product" still fucking sucks. Vanguard 2.0? Shit son, I "predict" the first game to come out of his company will be more like a copy of Vanguard with McQuaid"s autograph taped to an ICB with 10 Mirvs aimed for Boston.
Let me add some insight so we stay on topic. But before I do, I have never seen such bullshit propoganda in my entire life of a message forum. Nor have I seen more worthless fucking comments in one single thread. But excuse me as I trademark this one:
What the fuck are you talking about? You are spinning so much shit that you spun yourself sideways convulsing with an AED and a keyboard. I am going to read this again, spin master of spin town.
"it"s the main reason I have so much hope for the potential of Copernicus the IP as I do"
Do you even know what the fuck you are typing any more? Or did your internet publicist tell you to write that so I would quote it and you can come in here and play the wounded dog routine and twist it...
I have no hope for your IP. Because your IP is a pile of bullshit stamped with a concept from RA Salvatore (Even though he had jack shit all to do with the game - you bought his name) of which we will see glowing text of "his blades whirled as they whirled with quickness and tenacity of the whirl of blades that whirled" to fill in the blanks of another laughable entry into the world of MMORPG"s.
The only thing more miserable than your bullshit, is the fact you actually believe some people here think you are a gamer because Sony paid you an endorsement and a finders fee for EQ2.
And let me re-iterate in a spoiler...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:Curt Schilling is here because the FoH forum has the largest target market traffic.
Now, let me add my 10 cents on design to keep this on topic. But first...
Zehn, you are a good dude. But if I see any more of this bullshit again I am going to slap your ass with a wooden spoon. Capiche? But since I like you, I am going to give you a serious reply. Again, of common sense bullshit everyone knows.
Fluff features in a game do not have any high end costs. You can take a person who used to create text adventures in Basic, get them drunk, and watch what happens. They are what you just said... Fluff features. Which cost "Fluff" to make. Or design. And achievement systems are not costly to implement either. The only problem with achievements in an MMORPG are quality issues that arise from server stress combined with on demand connectivity. With that said...
You are better than stating the obvious. Knock it off.
Didn"t RA play a big part in developing Forgotten Realms, writing one of the first books and creating Drizzt, all at the insistance, btw, of a certain ..... Mary Kirchoff ?
I would say yes but EJ is also balls deep on WoW. Game shilling I doubt flies very well over there. FoH is more of a general MMO area even if most here do play WoW as well. I could be wrong though I have no idea what kinda traffic they get compared to us.James said:
Congrats on being the first entry on my ignore list Ut.
And you act like it"s some huge sneaky conspiracy because Curt is posting on this message board. Yea, we"re a good section of his target market that, if he wins us over, will evangelize his product like no other.
He"d be a retard not to start laying some of the groundwork. Yes, if it"s a shitty product it could blow up in his face. But we"re not all as cynical as you yet.
All other things aside, maybe he"s just a big gamer geek that LOVES what he"s doing right now and wants to shoot the shit with other big gamer geeks.
Hell even if he is ONLY posting here to generate hype and has no love of his games, it dosent make some of his points any less valid. Just like you being a raging douchebag dosent make your points any less valid.............err wait, in your case.........
Now stop shitting up the thread already.
When the games released, if it sucks, come back and rub our noses in it. Till then shut the fuck up.
And you act like it"s some huge sneaky conspiracy because Curt is posting on this message board. Yea, we"re a good section of his target market that, if he wins us over, will evangelize his product like no other.
He"d be a retard not to start laying some of the groundwork. Yes, if it"s a shitty product it could blow up in his face. But we"re not all as cynical as you yet.
All other things aside, maybe he"s just a big gamer geek that LOVES what he"s doing right now and wants to shoot the shit with other big gamer geeks.
Hell even if he is ONLY posting here to generate hype and has no love of his games, it dosent make some of his points any less valid. Just like you being a raging douchebag dosent make your points any less valid.............err wait, in your case.........
Now stop shitting up the thread already.
When the games released, if it sucks, come back and rub our noses in it. Till then shut the fuck up.