Health Care Thread
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Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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Lejina
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You will have a hard time to find an European (let alone a plural amount of them) to say he wish he was subjected to a system like the one the US has.
I'm Canadian and I sure as fuck don't see the appeal of risking bankruptcy because of injury or disease, let alone the absurd monthly payments you guys have for health insurance.
Vaclav
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You do realize the first option the Democrats proposed that was almost instantly shot down was to add single payer as an option period - not remove the current options, just add single payer to what we already have and let people choose which they prefer. And not for free either - although likely cheaper than most.
So in other words, exactly what you are saying was your wishlist - "Medicare for people that don't have insurance and old method for people that do" - was the initial Democrat proposal that your beloved party lead by the rallying cry of Breitbart, Limbaugh and Beck that you follow as a disciple ruined any chances of.
Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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Do you see the problem with the quoted text?
My own research indicates a much longer wait to see a specialist in the UK compared to the US. They have substantially better access to primary care physicians. You frame your argument as if healthcare in the UK is better is every respect, which I do not believe is true. I would choose a good family doctor in the U.S. with a good PPO style, employer sponsored plan over the publicly funded system of the UK, but if I'm poor or self-employed, I would much prefer what they have in the UK to what we had pre-ACA. *in terms of access to quality healthcare only, not taking into account wider political issues.
Choosing the lesser evil because a better alternative is outside the Red/Blue paradigm is bullshit. If the ACA is the lesser evil (and it is relative to whatever shit Republicans would give us), then it should not be taken, unless we will be a nation of cowards and incompetents, in which case, carry on.
I wonder (as in, I don't know), what are tax rates in Canada relative to the US, for areas with a similar cost of living? Obviously, if you compare Canadian tax rates to California tax rates, you likely won't see a huge difference. Nothing is free.
I say the key difference is responsiveness of the national government to needs of it's citizens, and responsiveness depends a great deal on being able to hold politicians accoutable, which becomes more difficult the farther the politician works from his constituents, and how many constituents he has.
Europe has a population of over $500 million, and many sovereign governments. What impact does a German politician have on public health legislation in the UK? - Little to none. Yet in the US, population 300+ miilion, a shitbag from Nevada had great influence on the ACA, which is applied in Ohio, quite far from Nevada. This is not even taking into account our winner take all system of electing members of the legislature, compared to proportional representation as seen in European democracies.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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health care in Canada is provided and paid by provincial lines. Federal government has no control, except some outlines for them to follow and some extra funding when they have a surplus budget.
In States, that would mean each state will pay and provide health care.
In States, that would mean each state will pay and provide health care.
Lejina
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Keep in mind our single payer system is a LOT cheaper per capita than what you guys use in the US. Your insurance funded health care requires more tax money than just about any single payer health care system entirely funded by tax money.
With that said, Canadian taxes:
Federal tax rates for 2014
15% on the first $43,953 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $43,954 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $43,953 up to $87,907), +
26% on the next $48,363 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $87,907 up to $136,270), +
29% of taxable income over $136,270.
Then each provinces (spoiled for size):
Provincial/territorial tax rates (combined chart)
Provinces/territories Rate(s)
Newfoundland and Labrador
7.7% on the first $34,254 of taxable income, +
12.5% on the next $34,254, +
13.3% on the amount over $68,508
Prince Edward Island
9.8% on the first $31,984 of taxable income, +
13.8% on the next $31,985, +
16.7% on the amount over $63,969
Nova Scotia
8.79% on the first $29,590 of taxable income, +
14.95% on the next $29,590, +
16.67% on the next $33,820, +
17.5% on the next $57,000, +
21% on the amount over $150,000
New Brunswick
9.68% on the first $39,305 of taxable income, +
14.82% on the next $39,304, +
16.52% on the next $49,193, +
17.84% on the amount over $127,802
Quebec
Go to Income tax rates (Revenu Qu?bec Web site).
Ontario
5.05% on the first $40,120 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $40,122, +
11.16% on the next $433,848, +
13.16 % on the amount over $514,090
Manitoba
10.8% on the first $31,000 of taxable income, +
12.75% on the next $36,000, +
17.4% on the amount over $67,000
Saskatchewan 11% on the first $43,292 of taxable income, +
13% on the next $80,400, +
15% on the amount over $123,692
Alberta
10% of taxable income
British Columbia
5.06% on the first $37,606 of taxable income, +
7.7% on the next $37,607, +
10.5% on the next $11,141, +
12.29% on the next $18,504, +
14.7% on the next $45,142, +
16.8% on the amount over $150,000
Yukon
7.04% on the first $43,953 of taxable income, +
9.68% on the next $43,954, +
11.44% on the next $48,363, +
12.76% on the amount over $136,270
Northwest Territories
5.9% on the first $39,808 of taxable income, +
8.6% on the next $39,810, +
12.2% on the next $49,823, +
14.05% on the amount over $129,441
Nunavut
4% on the first $41,909 of taxable income, +
7% on the next $41,909, +
9% on the next $52,452, +
11.5% on the amount over $136,270
Provinces/territories Rate(s)
Newfoundland and Labrador
7.7% on the first $34,254 of taxable income, +
12.5% on the next $34,254, +
13.3% on the amount over $68,508
Prince Edward Island
9.8% on the first $31,984 of taxable income, +
13.8% on the next $31,985, +
16.7% on the amount over $63,969
Nova Scotia
8.79% on the first $29,590 of taxable income, +
14.95% on the next $29,590, +
16.67% on the next $33,820, +
17.5% on the next $57,000, +
21% on the amount over $150,000
New Brunswick
9.68% on the first $39,305 of taxable income, +
14.82% on the next $39,304, +
16.52% on the next $49,193, +
17.84% on the amount over $127,802
Quebec
Go to Income tax rates (Revenu Qu?bec Web site).
Ontario
5.05% on the first $40,120 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $40,122, +
11.16% on the next $433,848, +
13.16 % on the amount over $514,090
Manitoba
10.8% on the first $31,000 of taxable income, +
12.75% on the next $36,000, +
17.4% on the amount over $67,000
Saskatchewan 11% on the first $43,292 of taxable income, +
13% on the next $80,400, +
15% on the amount over $123,692
Alberta
10% of taxable income
British Columbia
5.06% on the first $37,606 of taxable income, +
7.7% on the next $37,607, +
10.5% on the next $11,141, +
12.29% on the next $18,504, +
14.7% on the next $45,142, +
16.8% on the amount over $150,000
Yukon
7.04% on the first $43,953 of taxable income, +
9.68% on the next $43,954, +
11.44% on the next $48,363, +
12.76% on the amount over $136,270
Northwest Territories
5.9% on the first $39,808 of taxable income, +
8.6% on the next $39,810, +
12.2% on the next $49,823, +
14.05% on the amount over $129,441
Nunavut
4% on the first $41,909 of taxable income, +
7% on the next $41,909, +
9% on the next $52,452, +
11.5% on the amount over $136,270
Then remove about 4000-5000$ of baseline non refundable tax credit that everybody gets.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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Can you talk more about this? far as I can tell Obama basically bent over to the insurance companies with 0 fight.
Vaclav
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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It depends on the TYPE of specialist, yes you can find quotes saying that as an overall average that it's higher because MOST specialists work with non-critical care (i.e. podiatrists, plastic surgeons, orthapedists, etc) and many critical care specialties in the US don't really exist in the UK and fall under GPs (i.e. cardiologists are almost nonexistent, almost all the work we'd have cardiologists do here is done by GPs). GPs are trained to be able to handle a huge portion of what they had off in our system because of defensive medicine, part of the stupid waste in our system.
And no, it's not a problem where critical care is quicker and cosmetic and quality of life but not critical care stuff is slower. The average wait time in a UK hospital is about half the US - you know that whole "Help or die" type situation versus "man, my knee hurts a little". [And even then, as stated the ultimate quality after waiting a little longer for that QOL thing is actually better in the longrun - lasts longer, cheaper and higher quality of life in the patient (and lower recovery time I think as well?)]
It's not the lesser evil - it was the choice between something happening and stasis because of gridlock being spread across dozens of bills. If it was 1994 still and this was a brand new problem we got the scent of and were starting to deal with it and could afford to take 10-20 years getting the pieces in place it would be one thing, but it was a concern for OVER A DECADE FOR BOTH PARTIES and nothing was happening trying to do it piecemeal - literally no progress was made from when the Contract with America first mentioned it as a concern in 1994 until when the ACA passed in 2010 - SIXTEEN YEARS of it being a concern without a single substantial step made rather clear that it needed to be done in a lump or it was never going to happen until the party paradigm changed, which doesn't look like it's happening soon.
By 'cheaper' I assume you mean the Canadian single payer system provides the _same_ service for less. You are assuming a debatable point.
Sorry for the source, but I don't have patience to wade through old news stories right now. I have not evaluated this data, but it generally represents my impression of aspects of the Canadian system. Highlights under spoiler.
Comparison of the health care systems in Canada and the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As reported by the Health Council of Canada, a 2010 Commonwealth survey found that 42% of Canadians waited 2 hours or more in the emergency room, vs. 29% in the U.S.; 43% waited 4 weeks or more to see a specialist, vs. 10% in the U.S.
A 2003 survey of hospital administrators conducted in Canada, the U.S., and three other countries found dissatisfaction with both the U.S. and Canadian systems. For example, 21% of Canadian hospital administrators, but less than 1% of American administrators, said that it would take over three weeks to do a biopsy for possible breast cancer on a 50-year-old woman; 50% of Canadian administrators versus none of their American counterparts said that it would take over six months for a 65-year-old to undergo a routine hip replacement surgery
Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 42% of Canadians waited 2 hours or more in the emergency room, vs. 29% in the U.S.; 57% waited 4 weeks or more to see a specialist, vs. 23% in the U.S
The United States spends more on technology than Canada. In a 2004 study on medical imaging in Canada,[95] it was found that Canada had 4.6 MRI scanners per million population while the U.S. had 19.5 per million. Canada's 10.3 CT scanners per million also ranked behind the U.S., which had 29.5 per million.
A 2003 survey of hospital administrators conducted in Canada, the U.S., and three other countries found dissatisfaction with both the U.S. and Canadian systems. For example, 21% of Canadian hospital administrators, but less than 1% of American administrators, said that it would take over three weeks to do a biopsy for possible breast cancer on a 50-year-old woman; 50% of Canadian administrators versus none of their American counterparts said that it would take over six months for a 65-year-old to undergo a routine hip replacement surgery
Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 42% of Canadians waited 2 hours or more in the emergency room, vs. 29% in the U.S.; 57% waited 4 weeks or more to see a specialist, vs. 23% in the U.S
The United States spends more on technology than Canada. In a 2004 study on medical imaging in Canada,[95] it was found that Canada had 4.6 MRI scanners per million population while the U.S. had 19.5 per million. Canada's 10.3 CT scanners per million also ranked behind the U.S., which had 29.5 per million.
This is about as far as I'd like to go in dicussion comparing Canada to US. Even if the US did opt for a similar single payer system, I have no faith in the US federal gov't to implement it even as well as is done in Canada - too little accountability, too much corruption.
Re: taxes
I used a quick tax estimator site for 2013, Ohio. It indicated total income tax (state and federal) of $11,126 on $50k gross income, or ~22%. Of that ~$11k, only $1372 goes to Ohio, ~2.7% of income. This is base rate, claiming only self exemption, single person, and no tax credits.
Ohio Income Tax Rates for 2014
Compare to Ontario - your info: ($50k gross income)
I calculate $2910 goes to Ontario, or 5.8% of income. (Ohio: ~2.7%)
I calculate $7922 goes to federal gov, or ~15.8% of income. (US: 19.5%)
This is a very enlightening comparison (Canadian income taxes roughly on par with US). I prefer how the Canadian allocation of income taxes - a higher percentage to provinces than goes to states.
I realize I am quite radical in this regard. The current party paradigm/polarization is a symptom of structural problems in our democracy. Look above at how Canada does a better job keeping tax dollars local(relatively), whereas we send most of our income tax to DC, far away from the consituency in most cases, enabling the mind boggling corruption and inefficiency/waste we see in our federal government.
If you deny 'structural problems' exist in our democracy - I ask, what % of Americans support NSA domestic spying, which continues today? What % of Americans support bailouts of 'too big to fail' financial insitutions, or even the existence of such a category? Why are our leaders not held accoutable, reds and blues alike? (Don't answer, I don't want to go off topic so far).
I say faulty reforms such as ACA (in terms of paying for health care, not quality) only put off the necessary structural reform, and we're at a critical juncture now. Income inequality is at levels not seen since pre-Depression era; the US middle class is dying in a time when east asian middle class is booming. Taxing* the middle more, while maintaining large a deficit, doesn't cut it in the long term.
Of course, I am not so naive to think that a large group of people will actually stop voting themselves entitlements until every credit source is dry, and no suckers are left to force to pick up the tab.
*I use 'taxing' in a loose sense, it may include indirectly paying for ACA through higher premiums, for example. I've provided examples before of these cases. Subsidies don't count against this - those are paid directly through increased taxes.
Re wait times:
You seem to emphasize wait time once in the hospital over total wait time to have work done by a specialist. See my example above for Canada, specifically wait times to have breast tissue biopsy or hip replacement. Not digging for UK data right now.
Vaclav
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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I'd suggest reading the Wiki closer, your own evidence demonstrates that it's pretty much a wash. I.e. on specialists in general it quoted Canada as averaging 2-4 weeks (21 days would be the median vs. 20.2 days for the US average, a trivial difference.
Lejina
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Keep in mind we don't have to buy health insurance, pay deductibles or any of that jazz either. Canadians paying oh so much more taxes than Americans is largely a myth; we basically pay the same amount in taxes.
This is a very small sample. It takes into account only one type of tax and for only one income level. But let's assume you are correct. Consider the US gov has some expenses Canadians may not shoulder, like ~10 aircraft carriers to Canada's 0.
Wiki claims Canada 1.15% of GDP vs 4.9% GDP for US for defense spending, wth Canada spending under 30 billion per year on defense, and the US over 600 billion*. I calc. US spending at approx same % per capita GDP on defense as Canada would be under $175 billion - very rough/conservative estimate. That $425+ billion difference buys a lot of prostate exams.
This is no complaint about Canadian defense spending. I'm just keeping everything in perspective - we might pay similar taxes and Canadians get single payer health care included, while US doesn't, but the US buys a whole lot of other shit, while also funding Medicare, Medicaid (now expanded), and subsidies for health insurance premiums.
Maybe it depends on who you ask as for who's getting the better deal. I don't want to go into it.
* I checked 2014 defense budget and it drops to like $526 billion.
Sebudai
Ssraeszha Raider
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Holy. Shit. You have got to be the most ignorant moron in this entire fucking country. I hope so, at least. You "researched" the European systems? Fuck you. No seriously. Fuck you, you fucking moron dipshit fucking retard.
DiddleySquat
Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Glad you are putting in an effort. Also, how's your research going on how much -12-12 is?