Health Problems

Gurgeh · Nov 7, 2023

Captain Suave said:
Anyone here on statins? My LDL turned out super high this year despite my otherwise being in pretty good shape, good blood pressure, diet and regular exercise, etc. I'm not super stoked about being on perpetual medication but I don't really want a heart attack or stroke either.

What are people's experiences? Side effects?

What's super high ? All cause mortality is way higher at 100 than 300, optimal is around 230 it seems.

nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com

A nonlinear association of total cholesterol with all-cause and cause-specific mortality - Nutrition & Metabolism

Background The link between total cholesterol (TC) and all-cause and specific mortality has not been elucidated. Herein, we aimed to evaluate the effect of TC levels on all-cause, cardiovascular disease (CVD), and cancer mortality. Methods All data analyzed were obtained from the National Health...

nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com

As you can see ACM is higher at 100 than 500...
Not to mention the potential increased risk of dementia, like ppi, fucking up with nutrient absorption does not come for free. Unlike ppis the proof isn't there (yet) but your brain is cholesterol, and deprieving it of it can't be too good.

If your TC is just too high, adjusting the diet is the first thing to do. Doctors tend to be quick to draw statins before suggesting eating differently, and that's if TC is really high, not just slightly high.

Captain Suave · Nov 7, 2023

Gurgeh said:
What's super high ?

180 LDL of target 100. Total cholesterol 265.

Melicant · Nov 7, 2023

Captain Suave said:
Anyone here on statins? My LDL turned out super high this year despite my otherwise being in pretty good shape, good blood pressure, diet and regular exercise, etc. I'm not super stoked about being on perpetual medication but I don't really want a heart attack or stroke either.

What are people's experiences? Side effects?

Avoid if at all possible. Side effects are often downplayed and benefit exaggerated. LDL alone is a very poor indicator of risk.

Some stuff I compiled a while back:

This one gives a 13 minute general overview of some of the science behind them. End of the video is very interesting when going over absolute vs relative risk reduction reporting. They use relative risk for benefit, then absolute for things like memory loss.

Real Cause of CVD?

How food actually impacts Serum Cholesterol (pretty shocking):

Here is a longer, more detailed video from a cardiologist :

Short video covering recent paper/meta analysis of statins:

Discussion of paper on memory issues with certain classes of statins:

Cholesterol Meds DOUBLE Your Dementia Risk (Protect Your Brain!) 2023

Longer video on some of the science behind fat and statins:

Why Your Doctor Is Wrong About Statins and Fat by Dr Paul Mason | #PHCvcon2021

A more detailed video from the cardiologist in one of the earlier videos:

STATINS - EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES - Dr Nadir Ali #Statins #cholesterol #bigpharma

Risks of Statins with peer reviewed sources in video description:

10 Bad Things STATIN Drugs do in Your Body (Statin Side Effects) - 2023

Pretty well known Heart Surgeon. I have the video starting at the seed oils/statins section. Rest of interview is also interesting:

#1 Heart Surgeon: The WORST Food For Your Heart! (EAT THIS Instead)

Gurgeh · Nov 7, 2023

Captain Suave said:
180 LDL of target 100. Total cholesterol 265.

Certainly not worth panicking over, you're way closer to optimal than your doctor will put you at with statins.

It's worth looking at the link Melicant provided. If you're at 260 TC because of butter, eggs, avocado, olive oil or other good source of fat, you're probably at a very nice level. If it's due to fried shit, that's another story.

Prodigal · Nov 7, 2023

Wife took a statin for a week and joint pain made her stop taking it.

Switched to Repatha and it seems to be working well so far.

moonarchia · Nov 7, 2023

I have been on Atorvastatin for a while. My cholesterol numbers are good. No side effects that can't be explained for other reasons.

Guurn · Nov 7, 2023

moonarchia said:
I have been on Atorvastatin for a while. My cholesterol numbers are good. No side effects that can't be explained for other reasons.

I started with very high cholesterol levels, taking 40mg a day brought it down to almost normal levels. Mr doctor suggested doubling it to get it to ideal levels, one month later my wife was like wtf... your memory has gone to hell in the last couple days. My doctor told me that memory loss had been proven to not be a real side effect, so I went down to 1/4th of the new higher dose. Surprise! My memory is fine again, just a coincidence I'm sure. I debate going off but for now my cholesterol is staying low and I'm happy with that.

Izo · Nov 7, 2023

Guurn said:
I started with very high cholesterol levels, taking 40mg a day brought it down to almost normal levels. Mr doctor suggested doubling it to get it to ideal levels, one month later my wife was like wtf... your memory has gone to hell in the last couple days. My doctor told me that memory loss had been proven to not be a real side effect, so I went down to 1/4th of the new higher dose. Surprise! My memory is fine again, just a coincidence I'm sure. I debate going off but for now my cholesterol is staying low and I'm happy with that.

Memory loss has been reported, but is very rare. Much more comon are flatulans/constipation, hyperglycemia, muscle pain etc.

Gurgeh · Nov 7, 2023

Guurn said:
I started with very high cholesterol levels, taking 40mg a day brought it down to almost normal levels. Mr doctor suggested doubling it to get it to ideal levels, one month later my wife was like wtf... your memory has gone to hell in the last couple days. My doctor told me that memory loss had been proven to not be a real side effect, so I went down to 1/4th of the new higher dose. Surprise! My memory is fine again, just a coincidence I'm sure. I debate going off but for now my cholesterol is staying low and I'm happy with that.

Lower dose might not have an as impressive effect, but is it worth the risk to fuck your brain up in the long run, for something you could almost certainly deal with lifestyle change?

It's a bit sad that doctors first answer to trouble like hbp, reflux, high LDL, gout, and many other ailment, their first and only answer is pretty much lifelong drug prescription, when we know that lifestyle change are as efficient if not more and have positive side effets, unlike drugs.

These are the graphs for a) all cause mortality, b) cardiovascular c) cancer.
(Adjusted for age, gender, race, education level, married, smoking, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, estimated glomerular filtration rate, high density lipoprotein cholesterol, energy intake, hypertension, diabetes, antihypertensive drugs, hypoglycemic agents, and lipid-lowering drugs)

at 500 TC you're about the same as at 150 TC, which is probably where your doctor will want you to be. You might decrease a bit your cardiovascular mortality, alright, but the cancer graph is concerning and might be showing that it's messing with your immune system in some way, and the evidence that it cause dementia in the long run is starting to pile up.

I looked into that because I ended up getting 230 TC, first time ever above 200, while being on a fairly strict mediteranean diet for about a year... which seems super odd, as doctors start suggesting using statins at that level. But these graphs made sense : following what is the best (known) diet, it should provide a close to optimal outcome, and it did. 230 is pretty damn close of the optimal. 150 TC is very suboptimal, and probably rightly so, as it's the kind of value I had when eating shit : mostly refined sugar in one form or another from the supermarket.

I don't know about the US, but in France you're supposed to have a TC under 200, and on those graphs, it's precisely were the ACM risk is starting to increase a lot.

TheBeagle · Nov 7, 2023

Captain Suave said:
Anyone here on statins? My LDL turned out super high this year despite my otherwise being in pretty good shape, good blood pressure, diet and regular exercise, etc. I'm not super stoked about being on perpetual medication but I don't really want a heart attack or stroke either.

What are people's experiences? Side effects?

Ya I've been on Crestor for a couple years. Zero side effects for me.

TheBeagle · Nov 7, 2023

Melicant said:
Avoid if at all possible. Side effects are often downplayed and benefit exaggerated. LDL alone is a very poor indicator of risk.

Some stuff I compiled a while back:

This one gives a 13 minute general overview of some of the science behind them. End of the video is very interesting when going over absolute vs relative risk reduction reporting. They use relative risk for benefit, then absolute for things like memory loss.

Real Cause of CVD?

How food actually impacts Serum Cholesterol (pretty shocking):

Here is a longer, more detailed video from a cardiologist :

Short video covering recent paper/meta analysis of statins:

Discussion of paper on memory issues with certain classes of statins:

Cholesterol Meds DOUBLE Your Dementia Risk (Protect Your Brain!) 2023

Longer video on some of the science behind fat and statins:

Why Your Doctor Is Wrong About Statins and Fat by Dr Paul Mason | #PHCvcon2021

A more detailed video from the cardiologist in one of the earlier videos:

STATINS - EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES - Dr Nadir Ali #Statins #cholesterol #bigpharma

Risks of Statins with peer reviewed sources in video description:

10 Bad Things STATIN Drugs do in Your Body (Statin Side Effects) - 2023

Pretty well known Heart Surgeon. I have the video starting at the seed oils/statins section. Rest of interview is also interesting:

#1 Heart Surgeon: The WORST Food For Your Heart! (EAT THIS Instead)

Well shit, looks I have some homework.

Captain Suave · Nov 7, 2023

TheBeagle said:
Well shit, looks I have some homework.

It's worth researching the counter-arguments on some of these, too, not that I don't appreciate the information or find it useful. There are notable figures who seem to have their heads on straight and are current on the research (Attia) who seem pretty well convinced that LDL is the devil and we should all use statins more aggressively.

Thanks for the feedback, all.

Guurn · Nov 7, 2023

Gurgeh said:
Lower dose might not have an as impressive effect, but is it worth the risk to fuck your brain up in the long run, for something you could almost certainly deal with lifestyle change?

It's a bit sad that doctors first answer to trouble like hbp, reflux, high LDL, gout, and many other ailment, their first and only answer is pretty much lifelong drug prescription, when we know that lifestyle change are as efficient if not more and have positive side effets, unlike drugs.

View attachment 499366

These are the graphs for a) all cause mortality, b) cardiovascular c) cancer.
(Adjusted for age, gender, race, education level, married, smoking, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, estimated glomerular filtration rate, high density lipoprotein cholesterol, energy intake, hypertension, diabetes, antihypertensive drugs, hypoglycemic agents, and lipid-lowering drugs)

at 500 TC you're about the same as at 150 TC, which is probably where your doctor will want you to be. You might decrease a bit your cardiovascular mortality, alright, but the cancer graph is concerning and might be showing that it's messing with your immune system in some way, and the evidence that it cause dementia in the long run is starting to pile up.

I looked into that because I ended up getting 230 TC, first time ever above 200, while being on a fairly strict mediteranean diet for about a year... which seems super odd, as doctors start suggesting using statins at that level. But these graphs made sense : following what is the best (known) diet, it should provide a close to optimal outcome, and it did. 230 is pretty damn close of the optimal. 150 TC is very suboptimal, and probably rightly so, as it's the kind of value I had when eating shit : mostly refined sugar in one form or another from the supermarket.

I don't know about the US, but in France you're supposed to have a TC under 200, and on those graphs, it's precisely were the ACM risk is starting to increase a lot.

If you saw me you'd never guess but I had a widow maker brought on by a 70 percent occluded LAD and undiagnosed hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. I'm super lucky that during all the years of mountain bike racing I didn't just fall over dead. When I did it was right next to my wife, a top tier respiratory therapist, after running to meet her. She'd done Cpr hundreds, if not thousands of times and that experience paid off big time. For now I'll stick to my pretty low dose statin.

Melicant · Nov 7, 2023

Captain Suave said:
It's worth researching the counter-arguments on some of these, too, not that I don't appreciate the information or find it useful. There are notable figures who seem to have their heads on straight and are current on the research (Attia) who seem pretty well convinced that LDL is the devil and we should all use statins more aggressively.

Thanks for the feedback, all.

Attia is no longer taking a statin btw.

Captain Suave · Nov 7, 2023

Melicant said:
Attia is no longer taking a statin btw.

Yeah, I spoke sloppily. I should have said that he promotes aggressive lipid management in general through medication. In that clip he's still recommending the use of statins, though at lower dosages than are sometimes prescribed and switching to something else if side effects arise. I guess he had some issues.

Kobayashi · Nov 7, 2023

Captain Suave said:
Anyone here on statins? My LDL turned out super high this year despite my otherwise being in pretty good shape, good blood pressure, diet and regular exercise, etc. I'm not super stoked about being on perpetual medication but I don't really want a heart attack or stroke either.

What are people's experiences? Side effects?

Lipitor really fucked up my grandfather's memory when he was on it. He recovered, seemingly fully, once he was off it, but that really can't be good for the brain. It seems like they're continuously downplaying the risk of statins while also proceeding to pass them out like candy and lowering the thresholds to put people on them. Just based on my anecdotal experience, I would only go on them as an absolute last resort. I told my doctor in no uncertain terms to go fuck himself when he started pushing them hard when my bloodwork came back a little high.

Kithani · Nov 8, 2023

Kobayashi said:
Lipitor really fucked up my grandfather's memory when he was on it. He recovered, seemingly fully, once he was off it, but that really can't be good for the brain. It seems like they're continuously downplaying the risk of statins while also proceeding to pass them out like candy and lowering the thresholds to put people on them. Just based on my anecdotal experience, I would only go on them as an absolute last resort. I told my doctor in no uncertain terms to go fuck himself when he started pushing them hard when my bloodwork came back a little high.

I'm genuinely curious for you guys, why even go to the doctor if you are going to tell them to f off with recommendations? Like why even get your lipid panel checked in the first place? Is it more so you can find out if your lipids are abnormal and then youtube some sort of homeopathic treatment instead?

Gurgeh · Nov 8, 2023

Kithani said:
I'm genuinely curious for you guys, why even go to the doctor if you are going to tell them to f off with recommendations? Like why even get your lipid panel checked in the first place? Is it more so you can find out if your lipids are abnormal and then youtube some sort of homeopathic treatment instead?

When facing an obese patient, with reflux, hbp and high TC, most doctors will prescribe 3 drugs for life, with serious long term effects, rather than even suggesting to lose weight, while we know that the root cause of all 3 problems is very likely to be obesity.

It's not entirely their faut, as whether it's the government or insurance company, they try their best to let them see their patient 15 mn every 6 months, and dictating them what to do. They're increasingly technicians just applying rules made by bureaucrats. If bloodwork shows A then prescribe B. No choice given, or they'll be punished.

Personnaly I'm astonished that most people will not blink when told they need to take 1,2 or 3 drugs for the rest of life, when it's well documented that it could be avoided with lifestyle changes.

Kobayashi · Nov 8, 2023

Kithani said:
I'm genuinely curious for you guys, why even go to the doctor if you are going to tell them to f off with recommendations? Like why even get your lipid panel checked in the first place? Is it more so you can find out if your lipids are abnormal and then youtube some sort of homeopathic treatment instead?

I'm not opposed to following recommendations, but I'm not a big fan of the default medical intervention being a pill, especially because at the time I was healthy and in my early thirties and it was the first time it was ever elevated. He pushed hard for a statin, I said I wanted to modify my diet and exercise habits before doing something that drastic, he ignored that and kept pushing. You can paint that as kooky all you want, I didn't think his recommendation was at all reasonable as a starting point considering the potential downside risks. I ask for every panel they're willing to give me, seems like a pretty easy way to be made aware of potential problems and effect a change.

Sludig · Nov 8, 2023

Missing first few weeks that I've posted where it blistered up and opened. More gross than just clean wound, but here's the last progression to then starting to close and some time on wound vac. Gonna be a scar worthy of 2 face.

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