Hearthstone

brekk · May 4, 2018

Ravishing said:
I don't care about Baku paladin/Hunter... I think they're fine. Control decks can beat them with decent win rate. Genn/Murloc paladin would see much less play if Call to Arms is nerfed.

If they nerf CtA to 5, Even paladin would crash and burn, but Odd Paladin would thrive alongside Murlocadin. If they nerf it to 6 I don't see much changing. Due to lack of alternatives, even at 7 it would see play in Odd Paladin. It really is a broken card.

TJT · May 4, 2018

I have been playing some of the Kripp, "barely cubelock" and I like it. It has ratcatcher in it. Only one cube, no weapon and voidlord/despicable.

Not sure how strong it is but it is definitely less lame than the standard Cubelock.

Xequecal · May 4, 2018

I have no idea why cubelock still isn't playing Rin. It's one card in your deck, and turns all the control matchups from near autoloss to autowin.

TJT · May 4, 2018

I play Rin in my version of it.

Ishad · May 4, 2018

Ravishing said:
I'm surprised he mentioned Dirty Rat and not Loatheb. I agree with him there should always be cards you can tech in that can interact with an opponent hand.

Most of the decks right now don't bother me, even Quest Rogue... you can still build decks (not aggro) that can beat Quest Rogue. Dirty Rat was never a great deterrent... could help, but wasn't the be-all-end-all of Quest Rogue by any means. I actually like playing Quest Rogue, I think the 5 copies nerf is very fair. The deck relies on drawing some key cards early if you want to complete the quest early. Average completion is around turn 6.... rarely have I seen it sooner. In the past Quest Rogue was completing on turn 3-4 a lot of the time.

I think control decks would want a Loatheb effect to help create breathing room against Quest Rogue... prevent a Vanish or delay the quest 1 turn. Paladins have this with the new spell, but Control Paladin just isn't good right now to even try that. Mages could tech in Counterspells & Spellbender, like in the past. Wrecks Quest Rogues pretty hard.

Main issue with the meta bothering me are things he didn't even touch on:

CHEATING effects.
Lackey/Cubelock: Just so sick of this deck. It's the main reason I just don't want to play on ladder anymore. Too much bullshit to deal with. Giants, Voidlords, Doomguard, DK, etc etc... 1000 board clears. Fuck this shit. Can't play anything fun with Cubelock around.

Spiteful Summoner: Retarded high-roll gameplay. Got buffed with rotation and we all said it would be strong. Tired of the power turn 5/6/7s where there is a 4/4 and a 10-drop in play each turn.

Call to Arms: Ridiculous power level. Kripp hit the nail on the head. Even at 6 mana this card would see tons of play. The fact you DRAW 3 & PLAY 3 for 4 mana........ Just the Draw3 is worth over 4 mana, let alone playing them too. This card should be 6-7 mana easily.

I don't care about Baku paladin/Hunter... I think they're fine. Control decks can beat them with decent win rate. Genn/Murloc paladin would see much less play if Call to Arms is nerfed. Spiteful needs a change. Warlock needs something changed, I'd start with hitting Dark Pact. Make it 2 or 3 mana. This way they can't Lackey+Pact or Cube+Pact as easily. Delay the combo or make the mana cost less efficient for these 2 combos would provide a lot of breathing room.

If you hit dark pact it would just get replaced with the 1 mana Witchwood spell. Crafted Cubelock for this season and can confirm it is a retarded deck

Xequecal · May 4, 2018

Ishad said:
If you hit dark pact it would just get replaced with the 1 mana Witchwood spell. Crafted Cubelock for this season and can confirm it is a retarded deck

Dark Possession just deals 2 damage, it doesn't kill the target. It still works as good with the 2/2 but it doesn't let you cube something and then immediately kill your own cube. Not being able to weapon drop Doomguard, swing, cube it, Dark Pact it, and swing twice more would massively nerf the deck's power level. You also basically can't avoid exposing Cube and Rin to silence without sandbagging a 7 damage spellstone without Dark Pact, and this eliminates your control trump.

Ravishing · May 4, 2018

Xequecal said:
Dark Possession just deals 2 damage, it doesn't kill the target. It still works as good with the 2/2 but it doesn't let you cube something and then immediately kill your own cube. Not being able to weapon drop Doomguard, swing, cube it, Dark Pact it, and swing twice more would massively nerf the deck's power level. You also basically can't avoid exposing Cube and Rin to silence without sandbagging a 7 damage spellstone without Dark Pact, and this eliminates your control trump.

Also not healing for 8 can be a big deal.

Edit: And yea, I play Rin in my deck even if not optimal, she's fun

brekk · May 4, 2018

Xequecal said:
I have no idea why cubelock still isn't playing Rin. It's one card in your deck, and turns all the control matchups from near autoloss to autowin.

Because the weapon ruins Azari, and the crap demons dilute your Guldan demon summon.

You're best bet versus control is trying to avoid playing your Voidlords. I somehow had one in deck, one in hand, and with cubes was up to 9 dead Doomguards. Control can't stop that.

TJT · May 4, 2018

Ravishing said:
Also not healing for 8 can be a big deal.

Edit: And yea, I play Rin in my deck even if not optimal, she's fun

The fun cards make the game better. Rather than playing the meta Even paladin deck I have some janky shit in mine. They never expect the Crystal Lion!

And my Mill Druid deck with Forest Guide. It has gotten every single control deck by surprise so far lol.

Ravishing · May 4, 2018

brekk said:
If they nerf CtA to 5, Even paladin would crash and burn, but Odd Paladin would thrive alongside Murlocadin. If they nerf it to 6 I don't see much changing. Due to lack of alternatives, even at 7 it would see play in Odd Paladin. It really is a broken card.

We need to remember that LoH is Draw 3 , Heal 8... for 8 mana... LOL... just shows how incredibly stupid CtA is.

Xequecal · May 4, 2018

brekk said:
Because the weapon ruins Azari, and the crap demons dilute your Guldan demon summon.

You're best bet versus control is trying to avoid playing your Voidlords. I somehow had one in deck, one in hand, and with cubes was up to 9 dead Doomguards. Control can't stop that.

A control deck is pretty much 100% guaranteed to remove your weapon. They'll lose badly if they don't, because if they don't you can get up to 9 Doomguards like you say. Without it, you will never get a significant number of Doomguards to revive. Without your weapon the only way you can get a doomguard under cube is to hardcast it and discard 2, then immediately cube it. But you can't dark pact it that turn which leaves it vulnerable to silence. You can also play lackey, hope it lives until your next turn, AND then hope it pulls doomguard, not voidlord, but if you don't have voidlord out as a taunt already that's a pretty tall order.

TJT · May 4, 2018

brekk Kripp's suggestion was to nerf CTA to 5 mana and also make it only summon cards that cost 2. Locking it out of Even and Odd decks but like you siad it would still be in Murloc.

slippery · May 4, 2018

I just played against an Even Paladin who used Spiteful Summoner and Dinosize. He still had 2 call to arms in his deck too

zzeris · May 4, 2018

Ravishing said:
I'm surprised he mentioned Dirty Rat and not Loatheb. I agree with him there should always be cards you can tech in that can interact with an opponent hand.

Most of the decks right now don't bother me, even Quest Rogue... you can still build decks (not aggro) that can beat Quest Rogue. Dirty Rat was never a great deterrent... could help, but wasn't the be-all-end-all of Quest Rogue by any means. I actually like playing Quest Rogue, I think the 5 copies nerf is very fair. The deck relies on drawing some key cards early if you want to complete the quest early. Average completion is around turn 6.... rarely have I seen it sooner. In the past Quest Rogue was completing on turn 3-4 a lot of the time.

I think control decks would want a Loatheb effect to help create breathing room against Quest Rogue... prevent a Vanish or delay the quest 1 turn. Paladins have this with the new spell, but Control Paladin just isn't good right now to even try that. Mages could tech in Counterspells & Spellbender, like in the past. Wrecks Quest Rogues pretty hard.

Main issue with the meta bothering me are things he didn't even touch on:

CHEATING effects.
Lackey/Cubelock: Just so sick of this deck. It's the main reason I just don't want to play on ladder anymore. Too much bullshit to deal with. Giants, Voidlords, Doomguard, DK, etc etc... 1000 board clears. Fuck this shit. Can't play anything fun with Cubelock around.

Spiteful Summoner: Retarded high-roll gameplay. Got buffed with rotation and we all said it would be strong. Tired of the power turn 5/6/7s where there is a 4/4 and a 10-drop in play each turn.

Call to Arms: Ridiculous power level. Kripp hit the nail on the head. Even at 6 mana this card would see tons of play. The fact you DRAW 3 & PLAY 3 for 4 mana........ Just the Draw3 is worth over 4 mana, let alone playing them too. This card should be 6-7 mana easily.

I don't care about Baku paladin/Hunter... I think they're fine. Control decks can beat them with decent win rate. Genn/Murloc paladin would see much less play if Call to Arms is nerfed. Spiteful needs a change. Warlock needs something changed, I'd start with hitting Dark Pact. Make it 2 or 3 mana. This way they can't Lackey+Pact or Cube+Pact as easily. Delay the combo or make the mana cost less efficient for these 2 combos would provide a lot of breathing room.

I agree with everything but your quest rogue comments. Quest rogue can easily shit all over mid-range decks too. It completely screws making new low cost creatures which would hinder a good testing team from making stuff like a 2 mana 5/5 rush lifesteal, and multiple 1 mana 5/5 haste creatures. It's the ultimate cheat effect and considering it's back after being nerfed....it's obviously too powerful in a small limited card base. As you mentioned earlier, there are way too many extremely powerful cards and not only didn't they 'print' counters, they didn't make a bunch of new powerful cards to incentivize different decks.

Ravishing · May 4, 2018

zzeris said:
I agree with everything but your quest rogue comments. Quest rogue can easily shit all over mid-range decks too. It completely screws making new low cost creatures which would hinder a good testing team from making stuff like a 2 mana 5/5 rush lifesteal, and multiple 1 mana 5/5 haste creatures. It's the ultimate cheat effect and considering it's back after being nerfed....it's obviously too powerful in a small limited card base. As you mentioned earlier, there are way too many extremely powerful cards and not only didn't they 'print' counters, they didn't make a bunch of new powerful cards to incentivize different decks.

I wouldn't say "shit all over"... It has really good win rate against every control/late game list. What's a mid-range these days? Spiteful Druid? It has a 53% win rate, which is good for sure, but not the 75-85% like vs Control decks.

Control decks are built to counter other things in current meta, if we didn't have the Paladin decks / Cubelocks you would see a lot more Quest Rogue hate. The big issue with Quest Rogue, as Kibler says, is it is VERY boring, not interactive at all. Basically a coin flip at turn 1 for both players. Reminiscent of days of Reno Decks vs Pirate Decks where you basically knew the outcome before playing a card. And Every deck had either Reno or Patches. Quest Rogue is a lot like that feeling.

I'm sure if I was trying to play a fun control list, I'd be bitching about how oppressive Quest Rogue is... but I have nightmares of the Turn 2 quest completion of old...... and still winning (sometimes) as Control Paladin... and this new list that finishes around turn 6 just doesn't seem as bad.

Valishar · May 4, 2018

Just for fun I was looking at Tempostorms tier list from a year ago (I don't really like their ranking on lower tier decks but they do have a easy to access long archive of rankings).

Un'goro Meta T1:
Midrange Paladin
Pirate Warrior
Aggro Paladin
Aggro Druid
Quest Rogue

Meta Now:
Even Paladin (Midrange Paladin)
Odd Paladin (Aggro Paladin)
Spiteful Druid (Midrange Druid)
Quest Rogue
Cubelock

It's amusing how similar they are.

So why is a nerfed quest rogue seemingly good now compared to a year ago when it was much much better?
Well the fact that token druid and pirate warrior don't exist in standard is why, as bad as aggro is now, they don't even come close to the speed of those two decks. Odd rogue and hunter don't kill you on turn 5.

Just regular fatigue control is just basically doomed for the forseeable next two years (just as it has been for years now) as Shudderwok puts an upper limit on how slow you can make your deck.

brekk · May 4, 2018

Valishar said:
So why is a nerfed quest rogue seemingly good now compared to a year ago when it was much much better?
Well the fact that token druid and pirate warrior don't exist in standard is why, as bad as aggro is now, they don't even come close to the speed of those two decks. Odd rogue and hunter don't kill you on turn 5.

Vicious Scalehide, combined with all the main Aggro decks being the Weeny variety.

Ishad · May 4, 2018

Valishar said:
Just for fun I was looking at Tempostorms tier list from a year ago (I don't really like their ranking on lower tier decks but they do have a easy to access long archive of rankings).

Un'goro Meta T1:
Midrange Paladin
Pirate Warrior
Aggro Paladin
Aggro Druid
Quest Rogue

Meta Now:
Even Paladin (Midrange Paladin)
Odd Paladin (Aggro Paladin)
Spiteful Druid (Midrange Druid)
Quest Rogue
Cubelock

It's amusing how similar they are.

So why is a nerfed quest rogue seemingly good now compared to a year ago when it was much much better?
Well the fact that token druid and pirate warrior don't exist in standard is why, as bad as aggro is now, they don't even come close to the speed of those two decks. Odd rogue and hunter don't kill you on turn 5.

Just regular fatigue control is just basically doomed for the forseeable next two years (just as it has been for years now) as Shudderwok puts an upper limit on how slow you can make your deck.

Sonya+Zola

Xequecal · May 4, 2018

Ravishing said:
I wouldn't say "shit all over"... It has really good win rate against every control/late game list. What's a mid-range these days? Spiteful Druid? It has a 53% win rate, which is good for sure, but not the 75-85% like vs Control decks.

Control decks are built to counter other things in current meta, if we didn't have the Paladin decks / Cubelocks you would see a lot more Quest Rogue hate. The big issue with Quest Rogue, as Kibler says, is it is VERY boring, not interactive at all. Basically a coin flip at turn 1 for both players. Reminiscent of days of Reno Decks vs Pirate Decks where you basically knew the outcome before playing a card. And Every deck had either Reno or Patches. Quest Rogue is a lot like that feeling.

I'm sure if I was trying to play a fun control list, I'd be bitching about how oppressive Quest Rogue is... but I have nightmares of the Turn 2 quest completion of old...... and still winning (sometimes) as Control Paladin... and this new list that finishes around turn 6 just doesn't seem as bad.

It was actually possible in some games to run quest rogue out of threats in a control deck when it was popular before. Now that they have Sonya, it's impossible.

Ravishing · May 4, 2018

Xequecal said:
It was actually possible in some games to run quest rogue out of threats in a control deck when it was popular before. Now that they have Sonya, it's impossible.

Sonya is great, but not infinite... enemy needs stuff with >5 attack to get infinite stuff. Or you need to get 2+ sonya on board at same time.... which I've done, but isn't always feasible. She's really powerful though.Yea.

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