Hearthstone

Ishad

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Murloc is now the champion of Paladins. Spell hunter may be a tier 1 deck.
 

Vandyn

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The cubelock nerfs are huge in comparison to some of the others. Halving the heal is significant. Slowing that combo by a turn is also. You waste a turn and a card for 4 health and to cheat out at best a 9 drop? That's not nearly as powerful. Cube can still pull off the nuts on turn six but it isn't quite as one sided now. Even pally is going to be much different as is odd. Odd definitely can't use call nearly as well but its still a powerful effect.

Spiteful nerf is pathetic. So now an effect that values around 11-12sh costs 7 instead of 6. Great job.....

Quest rogue...I'm still not sure about. Definitely a lot weaker but damn was it oppressive. They really have no clue how to balance this game. An 80 IQ autist could see cubelock was going to be too powerful...so they made Godfrey, and voodoo doll. Retards.
On Dark Pact, I agree that I think some of you are minimizing the impact of health from 8 to 4. That's a big deal, I've seen cubelocks come back from the dead where they were in single digits. This change makes recovery harder than before.

I'm indifferent on the other nerfs. I honestly am not sure how much of an impact Quest Rogue is. 5 to 4 is something but not everyone has to ability to wipe 4's either on a consistent basis.
 

Aaubert

Knight of the Realm
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On Dark Pact, I agree that I think some of you are minimizing the impact of health from 8 to 4. That's a big deal, I've seen cubelocks come back from the dead where they were in single digits. This change makes recovery harder than before.
I think that my negative reaction is based on the way that the already ultra-powerful warlock hero power is so well-aligned with the deck's goals and the interactions with the other cards. Control/Cubelock is a mini-combo deck, so they need to draw lots of cards. Warlocks get to draw cards easily and take damage in the process. They pack a bunch of cards that gain benefits by warlock taking damage, like the spellstone and hooked reaver. This all builds to them having a string of cards in their hand which are nearly unbeatable once they've gathered the right combo pieces. Warlock HP has always been powerful - think of zoo - but it has relied on making choices that reduce synergy, like discard effects or taking damage.

In this meta, we're stuck fighting against aggrodins, and we're not even dealing with the typical rock/paper/scissors anymore. It's just Aggrodins and Warlocks at the top, and decks that are very weak to one or the other.
 

Ravishing

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My problem with the dark pact and lackey nerfs are that it's basically irrelevent against all but aggressive decks... often dark pact isn't even used for the heal and it's just as strong in combination with weapon and cubes
 

Archmage Lightning Lord Rule

Lightning Fast
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I don't think the dark pact nerf goes far enough either, but I'll try to look at it charitably:

Up until this point, no one played Skulking geist as a hard counter to cubelock because it came out too late to do anything about weapon > doomguard > cube > pact and lackey > pact shenanigans. Now, since everyone is running weapon tech, and now you can run Geist because it can come out in time to counter lackey, both of cubelock's bullshit cheat tactics can be successfully responded to. I'm not sure aggro will tech in geist, but control certainly will.

I'm not sure murloc paladin will take off as well as even and odd have. Murloc doesn't have quite the snowball/blowout potential that the other 2 decks have, but that could just be because I haven't played vs much murloc pally.

I'm most disappointed with the weak spiteful nerf. The best counter to that spiteful turn now is voodoo doll.


It will be interesting to see what new decks rise up a bit to fill the power vacuum.
 

zzeris

Vermin Supreme
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My problem with the dark pact and lackey nerfs are that it's basically irrelevent against all but aggressive decks... often dark pact isn't even used for the heal and it's just as strong in combination with weapon and cubes
Yeah but there's no reason to completely erase the deck. As LLR mentioned, there are now effective counters for control decks that stop the shenanigans if Cube deck keeps showing up everywhere. The real problem is Spiteful and too powerful neutrals destroying unique decks. They didn't learn just a few months ago with Bonemare, CCreeper, earlier with Patches, and even as far back as undertaker. Overly powerful neutrals nerf the meta into a bland sameness that makes me want to check out even faster. You know when a valid Spiteful Murloc Pally has some success, you've fucked your game up. Or when every tempo deck was using Bonemare, CC, Southsea, Patches, etc. That's lazy ass design.
 

Vandyn

Molten Core Raider
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Yeah but there's no reason to completely erase the deck. As LLR mentioned, there are now effective counters for control decks that stop the shenanigans if Cube deck keeps showing up everywhere. The real problem is Spiteful and too powerful neutrals destroying unique decks. They didn't learn just a few months ago with Bonemare, CCreeper, earlier with Patches, and even as far back as undertaker. Overly powerful neutrals nerf the meta into a bland sameness that makes me want to check out even faster. You know when a valid Spiteful Murloc Pally has some success, you've fucked your game up. Or when every tempo deck was using Bonemare, CC, Southsea, Patches, etc. That's lazy ass design.
100% agree. It's like they create (and test) all these new cards in a vacuum without seeing the interactivity with other cards. The worst design in recent memory has to be the first version of Quest Rogue. I have no idea how you can't see that is some of the most OP crap you can put in your game with how it interacts with cards from CLASSIC of all things.
 

Ravishing

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Yeah but there's no reason to completely erase the deck. As LLR mentioned, there are now effective counters for control decks that stop the shenanigans if Cube deck keeps showing up everywhere. The real problem is Spiteful and too powerful neutrals destroying unique decks. They didn't learn just a few months ago with Bonemare, CCreeper, earlier with Patches, and even as far back as undertaker. Overly powerful neutrals nerf the meta into a bland sameness that makes me want to check out even faster. You know when a valid Spiteful Murloc Pally has some success, you've fucked your game up. Or when every tempo deck was using Bonemare, CC, Southsea, Patches, etc. That's lazy ass design.
The counters have always existed, not much changes. Geist & Weapon Removal already were tech'd in... sure, it'll be a little easier (maybe) to fit them now that Even Paladin is nerfed, but I really don't think the aggro is going away, so you probably still better off NOT running Geist. Warlock still have good healing with Spellstones and DK, and Dark Pact for 4 is still good. The biggest nerf is Lackey. That 1 extra turn means aggro wins a few more games. Otherwise I don't see it really affecting much else.
 

zzeris

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The counters have always existed, not much changes. Geist & Weapon Removal already were tech'd in... sure, it'll be a little easier (maybe) to fit them now that Even Paladin is nerfed, but I really don't think the aggro is going away, so you probably still better off NOT running Geist. Warlock still have good healing with Spellstones and DK, and Dark Pact for 4 is still good. The biggest nerf is Lackey. That 1 extra turn means aggro wins a few more games. Otherwise I don't see it really affecting much else.
I get all this and agree to a point. I just agree more with Kibler's view on some nerfs. Nerfing the Anduin combo, while necessary, opened up the door for Cubelock even more than previously. One of the best counters no longer existed and suddenly..Cubelock everywhere. I don't want Cubelock totally crushed so I can see Spiteful shit,etc, etc in every game I play for the next 6-8 months until Blizzard figures out another nerf didn't work. I also don't want just Evenlock as my warlock options. You mention slowing down Cube but nothing else changing. You also mention that aggro has a much easier path though. That is actually significant when using the rock/paper thought system. There is a solid set of counter decks now(or should be).

What exactly did only upping the cost of Spiteful by a measly one accomplish for this meta? It's a tempo deck with a ton of early defense and gas. What does that nerf accomplish....at all? Nothing is the best answer I've seen. No one even knows if the Quest Rogue will work because their first one didn't. I intentionally meant No One knows. Those guys are clueless.
 

Ravishing

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I don't even know what my ideal meta would be but I know for a fact it wouldn't have the insane cheating/power moves. So yea, Spiteful is still going to be bullshit. Cubelock is still bullshit. Call to Arms is still bullshit. Quest Rogue PROBABLY has been eliminated though. So 1/4 down. 3 to go.
 

Archmage Lightning Lord Rule

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Don't get me wrong, I agree with all of you when you say they didn't nerf hard enough. I was just trying to find a silver lining :)
 

Brand

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I don't even know what my ideal meta would be but I know for a fact it wouldn't have the insane cheating/power moves. So yea, Spiteful is still going to be bullshit. Cubelock is still bullshit. Call to Arms is still bullshit. Quest Rogue PROBABLY has been eliminated though. So 1/4 down. 3 to go.
I actually feel the opposite is true...I don't think that the 5/5 to 4/4 is meaningful for quest rogue. The deck is like a solo non-interactive setup and when I get to win condition it doesn't matter if I'm charging with 8 4/4s or 8 5/5s...Wither way I'm winning.

I do think that the marginal nerfs to warlock will have a significant impact on it.

The spiteful nerf was marginal, but the deck was 1.5 Tier anyway...It will be interesting to see where everything lands after the dust settles.
 

Ravishing

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I actually feel the opposite is true...I don't think that the 5/5 to 4/4 is meaningful for quest rogue. The deck is like a solo non-interactive setup and when I get to win condition it doesn't matter if I'm charging with 8 4/4s or 8 5/5s...Wither way I'm winning.

I do think that the marginal nerfs to warlock will have a significant impact on it.

The spiteful nerf was marginal, but the deck was 1.5 Tier anyway...It will be interesting to see where everything lands after the dust settles.
Yes, for sure, Quest Rogue might survive, but you're kidding yourself if 4/4 isn't significant. It requires 8 chargers to face instead of 6 now. And getting through taunts can be much tougher. Now a 4/5 taunt requires 2 attacks. Applebaum could make an impact, it requires 2 hits, kills 2 of your chargers (or dagger hit), and heals opponent.

Only way Quest Rogue still survives is if meta slows down a lot and you can get even greedier somehow.. like hold Sonya/Zola until you can go infinite.
 
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