Hearthstone

Gavinmad

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,493
50,675
The answer, if there needs to be one, is a very slight change to Leeroy, or a nerf to the enablers. Personally, I like just making Leeroy unable to be targeted by spells and hero abilities. Miracle would end as a deck, handlock would probably switch to arcane golem, and leeroy is still a strong finisher for normal aggro decks.

I also like making him a 7/2 for 5, which would probably do the same thing.
 
Brand

Brand

Molten Core Raider
1,159
313
I'm not convinced Leeroy needs a nerf. He is on the line, but I don't think he is over it. I also think that UTH didn't need a nerf...Buzzard needed a change.
 
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Remmy

Golden Knight of the Realm
295
144
I would like them to tweak the charge mechanics instead. And then re balance charger's specific stats as needed.

Something along the lines of making it so chargers must charge a creature if they have an option to do so. This would only apply on the "charge" turn.

Possibly even allowing any extra damage done to "trample" to other creatures or the player.
 
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Remmy

Golden Knight of the Realm
295
144
I'm not really speaking about any specific instance of charge am I? I think it's a pretty shitty mechanic in general that's open to abuse.

Perhaps you could illustrate your thoughts on why a mechanic that acts like a frost bolt or fireball but perpetuates as a creature on the board is a good mechanic in a game where your opponents options to mitigate the attack are very limited, and largely easy to circumvent.
 
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The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
Remmy_sl said:
I'm not really speaking about any specific instance of charge am I? I think it's a pretty shitty mechanic in general that's open to abuse.

Perhaps you could illustrate your thoughts on why a mechanic that acts like a frost bolt or fireball but perpetuates as a creature on the board is a good mechanic in a game where your opponents options to mitigate the attack are very limited, and largely easy to circumvent.
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Because you pay a premium mana cost for it? It's part of the game, what the heck are you talking about.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Charge on its surface looks deceptively like the nonbroken Haste mechanic in MTG. unfortunately zero instants and blocking being restricted to Taunt creatures only (and even then it's more limited than MTG blocking) however turn it into something inherently degenerate.

Hell, look at the closest equivalent in MTG - Haste + Hexproof which Charge often mirrors with no extra turns post charge generally. Creatures with that combo have always been amongst the top tiers without adding unblockable on top of it. (note: some were Shroud in the past)

Without changing how blocking operates or other massive changes, Charge is really off kilter for how it operates - it's costed similar to MTG in balance across the board for the most part even Charge when it's equivalent to far more than just Haste. 6/2 Haste, Hexproof, Unblockable except by Walls that gives your opponent two 1/1s would be a 7 CMC minimum.
 
Gavinmad

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,493
50,675
The Ancient_sl said:
That's Leeroy, how about another example please.
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Well any charge creature is going to be wildly undercosted if you try to compare it to MTG because Hearthstone charge is the equivalent of the entire MTG Haste, Hexproof, Unblockable except by Walls package.
 
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The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
Gavinrad_sl said:
Well any charge creature is going to be wildly undercosted if you try to compare it to MTG because Hearthstone charge is the equivalent of the entire MTG Haste, Hexproof, Unblockable except by Walls package.
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I can't tell if you are purposefully trying to point out the ridiculousness of the point or not.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
The Ancient_sl said:
I can't tell if you are purposefully trying to point out the ridiculousness of the point or not.
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Pretty sure he's mirroring my point - almost everything in Hearthstone follows a CMC = P/T formula with a few minor +/-1 CMC variations here and there almost identical to MTG. Including Charge stuff - there's plenty of MTG analogs in the Charge critters.

It's drastically undercosted for the effect considering how much everything else adheres pretty close to MTG costing except for Charge stuff. Heck, most of the Wolf Rider analogs in MTG have drawbacks even.

Haste is balanced at that cost in MTG because of the fact that blocking and instants exist - remove blocking and instants from the equation and the mechanic should be costed much higher. Plus there's that entire theorem to good card game design - interactivity - if you remove the ability for people to have any response to something and literally all they can do is sit there and let something resolve with no ability to deflect or deal with the impact it's a bad mechanic.

The only way Charge can be interacted with at all is via Taunt which is entirely proactive, there is zero potential to be reactive.
 
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Zulst_sl

shitlord
264
0
I'd rather them leave Leeroy alone rather than have him be another Tinkmaster/Nat Pagle. If you go by the way Blizzard usually costs their cards, he's only undervalued a tiny amount and since he's a legendary, I'm okay with that.
 
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The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
Vaclav_sl said:
Pretty sure he's mirroring my point - almost everything in Hearthstone follows a CMC = P/T formula with a few minor +/-1 CMC variations here and there almost identical to MTG. Including Charge stuff - there's plenty of MTG analogs in the Charge critters.

It's drastically undercosted for the effect considering how much everything else adheres pretty close to MTG costing except for Charge stuff. Heck, most of the Wolf Rider analogs in MTG have drawbacks even.

Haste is balanced at that cost in MTG because of the fact that blocking and instants exist - remove blocking and instants from the equation and the mechanic should be costed much higher. Plus there's that entire theorem to good card game design - interactivity - if you remove the ability for people to have any response to something and literally all they can do is sit there and let something resolve with no ability to deflect or deal with the impact it's a bad mechanic.

The only way Charge can be interacted with at all is via Taunt which is entirely proactive, there is zero potential to be reactive.
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By that argument every spell is undercosted because once again, no instants.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
The Ancient_sl said:
By that argument every spell is undercosted because once again, no instants.
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Not so much, because everything has summoning sickness besides Charge stuff - thus Instants aren't necessary for a chance at a response. "Sorcery Speed" doesn't really have much downside versus stuff that's summoning sicknessed.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
For the record I wouldnt say he needs a nerf. I'm just asking that if they want to nerf something they shouldnt pile a ton of pointless complications into the game, and instead adress the cards in question directly. Ideally through new cards but this being Blizzard means a long wait. Cant they buy out some CCG designers from somewhere with all the WoW money and fast track this game?
 
Lasch

Lasch

Trakanon Raider
1,514
720
The number one thing I hope they add to Hearthstone is rabbit hunting.

I gotta know... would I have drawn it?!
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Mr Creed_sl said:
For the record I wouldnt say he needs a nerf. I'm just asking that if they want to nerf something they shouldnt pile a ton of pointless complications into the game, and instead adress the cards in question directly. Ideally through new cards but this being Blizzard means a long wait. Cant they buy out some CCG designers from somewhere with all the WoW money and fast track this game?
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Adding instants would be the most elegant solution, but would require them to do a ton of work to allow it - which ain't realistic.
 
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