Heroes of the Storm
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khalid
Unelected Mod
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The very idea of "last hit" to get xp turned me off of LoL immediately, even though so much of the rest of the game interested me. I couldn't get past trying to killsteal my own team in order to advance. Very much look forward to blizzard taking out silly stuff like that.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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I see this as more of an RTS Battle Arena - like wow battlegrounds. I think of if you visualize it in a different way - it can't possibly be league or dota - but that doesn't mean it won't be fun and fall in a kind of hybrid niche. Its not exactly Dota or LoL. But it also isn't starcraft, wow, or diablo. But it grabs some aspects of all their franchises and kind of tosses them together. The game itself could be super fun, as the Exp Range/Global Share mechanic promotes both teams be split up in some combination to maximize gains, the lopsided player positioning probably creates more action vs 1v1 / 2v2 stalemates etc. Just let this game be what it will be and judge it on that. Most people who really love Dota or LoL devote most of their game time to those games even given the opportunity to do something different. If you like either game, its a difficult task to dethrone it as your favorite game. I think my friends who can't hang in league or dota but have a desire to play a 5 on 5 game with some amount of cooperation could really love it - and playing as a group obviously makes any multiplayer game more enjoyable.
Sulrn
Deuces
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You don't have to play the game when they provide the evidence to support the argument. Everything I pointed out was in one of the videos. The only skill involved was kiting enemies between your gate and your team.
Everything else is coordinating with the other 4 minor characters on your team to muster something to push the game one way or the other. So are we saying that the only skill involved is your ability to coordinate with you team? So like EQ raid level skill?
Everything else is coordinating with the other 4 minor characters on your team to muster something to push the game one way or the other. So are we saying that the only skill involved is your ability to coordinate with you team? So like EQ raid level skill?
So you're saying the game will have a low skill cap and the gap between a newb and a top tier player will be relatively small?
there was no way to tell the WC3 engine to split the gold reward for killing a unit evenly between all parties who did varying amounts of damage to it, you only could simply add a value for dealing the killing blow
Dota eventually introduced the continuous stream of gold flow to try and compensate for this but these were all just workarounds of the engine limitations
TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I've watched a few games here and there now and here are my thoughts.
I didn't like that the opposing team CANNOT cross your little turret gate thing at all. This makes for less interesting "jungle" type plays. The game is focused around competing for objectives. So, if you play League imagine a game whose entire focus is contesting Dragon/Baron, then pushing. I don't like that.
As far as champions go, I haven't seen too many. Having customized ults makes competitive play... problematic. Unless there is some obvious way of knowing what ult they're running before they use it. This may be a fun little game. But I think it lacks some competitive mechanics.
But the same was said about League when it came out so who the fuck knows. I'll give it a go. Barring it doesn't have a fucktarded F2P model like the ones as of late.
I didn't like that the opposing team CANNOT cross your little turret gate thing at all. This makes for less interesting "jungle" type plays. The game is focused around competing for objectives. So, if you play League imagine a game whose entire focus is contesting Dragon/Baron, then pushing. I don't like that.
As far as champions go, I haven't seen too many. Having customized ults makes competitive play... problematic. Unless there is some obvious way of knowing what ult they're running before they use it. This may be a fun little game. But I think it lacks some competitive mechanics.
But the same was said about League when it came out so who the fuck knows. I'll give it a go. Barring it doesn't have a fucktarded F2P model like the ones as of late.
Delly
Trakanon Raider
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Yeah except League was hated on for several different reasons, but not having any items or sharing the "moba" feel wasn't any of them.
I think its going to have a lot of action and maybe that is what they are going for. No reason to overly farm, force everyone to specific objectives to force fights, push and fight more. Fast games with tons of action = fun and casual?
I wouldn't mind having a backup game to play with friends when I don't feel like playing Dota.
I think its going to have a lot of action and maybe that is what they are going for. No reason to overly farm, force everyone to specific objectives to force fights, push and fight more. Fast games with tons of action = fun and casual?
I wouldn't mind having a backup game to play with friends when I don't feel like playing Dota.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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That approach worked for Hearthstone, and by the time shallowness is a factor for the individual player the money has been reaped. Just give keys to twitch jockeys so the hype train stays in effect long enough, then rekindle it a year later with an xpac/new card set or in this case batch of heroes from the latest franchise story abomination.
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
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Chris
Potato del Grande
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I actually used the WC3 Mapmaker. Last hittingwasa limitation of the engine. You could maybe write complicated trigger to get around it (I tried doing this) but I assume it was a healthy part of the game before that was even considered.
Amzin
Lord Nagafen Raider
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I used the WC3 mapmaker as well. There are alternatives to the way it was done, perhaps not as advanced as are possible in a custom engine, but there were. Same with denying, people thought it was hard coded into WC3 but it is incredibly easy to disable, I had it disabled in my own ghetto moba that I never released on like the first day I tinkered with it.
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Well that's the thing, you can rework everything via triggers, that's why technically the WC3 "engine" has very few limitations. You can easily make the bounty for last hits 0 though, and then add constant gold, or remove gold entirely, and I doubt making xp global would be that hard since there's already global xp stuff in dota(when you last hit a hero with a global skill you gain xp and it's shared with everyone that's actually in range, so there's a precedent).
Last hitting is a layer of complexity that acts as a filler when nothing else is happening. If you play a jungler(autoattack jungler not minion jungler), you see what happens when you remove last hitting, you just stand there doing very little to nothing while looking at the map to figure out what you should be doing next cause there's nothing else to do. This is what happens when you remove last hitting in lanes. You'll be standing there looking for something to do.
You could think that'll encourage more fighting, but as I touched on shortly in my last post, that's only assuming it is actually possible to kill people in lane early on, which I'm less than positive about. It would either require long CC(haha yeah nope), displacement skills(like the pudge hook, but it seems to be the only one they've shown) or for towers to be fairly weak which doesn't make much sense. So most likely, you won't be doing much of anything if you're not retarded until the secondary objectives open, and then everyone will go for them because who the fuck wants to stay in lane doing nothing. Which is similar to the wow AB issue(to take a blizzard problem), where you wanted to have one guy staying on defense at the farm/whatever the other one was, but most pubs would just leave it undefended cause it sucked staying there vs rushing to the blacksmith/mill/mine. It's an anti pub friendly mechanic, which is questionnable design for a casual oriented game. No one wants to stay in lane to leech xp for the team if there's nothing to do there.
At least in dota/lol, you can focus on your last hitting, increasing your own wealth by a good amount and feel good about it, instead of being like "oh well everyone's at dragon/roshan, I'm gonna go there too fuck this empty lane".
Even assuming the removal of last hits is a good thing though, I don't know why the removal of items is. You could get gold by completing team objectives and still have that layer of customization.
Not saying it's not going to be fun to play or sucessful though. Just discussing mechanics and how they'll impact the game.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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Removing gold and the item shop takes 2 huge pillars of what dota and league are - I think your argument is very valid. Its a huge question mark if what remains in this game equates to fun and long term replayability.
The main thing about this is - is it going to increase the player pool of a "moba like" game - i.e. Even though millions of people play league and dota - there are millions more that don't - if that group of people gets hyped for heroes of the storm then maybe it has a huge playerbase. If the only people this intially appeals to is league and dota players they are just going to go back to their preferred game.
I am not sold that calling this a moba is the right thing to classify it as - its an impossible comparison. Its quite obvious that discussion of depth is a real issue with this game if the contrasting titles are league and dota. I think it does a disservice to the game to call it that - but I guess if moba means multiplayer online battle arena - it is that i guess. However we do know from blizzcon that when some top 1% dota players pick it up they pooped on the people they played against every game.
The main thing about this is - is it going to increase the player pool of a "moba like" game - i.e. Even though millions of people play league and dota - there are millions more that don't - if that group of people gets hyped for heroes of the storm then maybe it has a huge playerbase. If the only people this intially appeals to is league and dota players they are just going to go back to their preferred game.
I am not sold that calling this a moba is the right thing to classify it as - its an impossible comparison. Its quite obvious that discussion of depth is a real issue with this game if the contrasting titles are league and dota. I think it does a disservice to the game to call it that - but I guess if moba means multiplayer online battle arena - it is that i guess. However we do know from blizzcon that when some top 1% dota players pick it up they pooped on the people they played against every game.
I think people referring to it as an ARTS or MOBA are attaching some associations that are causing people to go up in arms. The game seems to play more like a battle arena than a truly strategic game. Just like how DOTA wasn't a true RTS. It was similar to WC3 but stripped away the unit building, base building and economy management. It left, at the core, hero on hero warfare. Which existed in WC3 but not to the extent it existed in DOTA. I think removing features but fleshing out other features is generally good practice. I'm still in a wait-and-see mode for this one.
Sulrn
Deuces
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Yes, I am. The only true barrier of skill at this point of the game is map awareness, communication, and the ability to learn what hero can do what, ie very low skill. Hence the EQ reference (knowing the zone, coordinating the raid, and knowing what to bring to kill your target), except in this the devs don't even want you to get geared and are assisting in power leveling you. By simplifying the game and focusing on group play by removing factors that allow individual thought/skill to weigh in, individual skill is near entirely moot unless they revamp the skills we've seen or add more elements. So yes, top tie will be 10-100% more effective base kiters. WOOHOO!
I'm not the only person saying this. The game has potential. The game is a breath of fresh air and has ideas I wish Dota would implement. The game does not appear to require much skill at all, however, simply because of HOW THEY CHOSE TO SIMPLIFY IT. Listen to them talk about it. They want everyone to be able to get in the game and play as heroes they met in other games and not worry about other distracting factors.
I was pretty against BALLS .. but part of me wonders if it may be enjoyable to strip away all the tactics in traditional MOBAS and just do team fights. Like WoW it will allow me to play games again with my less "skilled" friends.
If they keep this game simple like you guys are talking about it's just going to help DOTA/LOL even more because it get's people interested in the genre. They'll probably get good at the game, realize the limitations and explore other games. There doesn't seem to be much depth of skill in the game.
At least in DOTA/LOL if you are good at laning/early game where your CS is high, or you snag a kill or two, you can be an asset to your team on an individual level. This game doesn't seem to allow you to do that. There really is no skill.
Can you even feed in this game? Is there any detriment to dying in this game other than you're taken off the map for a period of time?
At least in DOTA/LOL if you are good at laning/early game where your CS is high, or you snag a kill or two, you can be an asset to your team on an individual level. This game doesn't seem to allow you to do that. There really is no skill.
Can you even feed in this game? Is there any detriment to dying in this game other than you're taken off the map for a period of time?
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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From what I heard, yes you can feed. Though when you die the score opposing team gets there exp. Dying once or twice won't be as punishing, but someone continually dying to the opposing team will definitely make a difference.
Personally, I like the direction. If I wanted to play a punishing moba I'd pay dots or lol. I don't play those games because you can't play them casually. It seems that this game is designed ONLY to be played casually. I'm fine with that. Some may not be... Though I don't understand why... If you play mobas competitively, then you play dota or lol.
Personally, I like the direction. If I wanted to play a punishing moba I'd pay dots or lol. I don't play those games because you can't play them casually. It seems that this game is designed ONLY to be played casually. I'm fine with that. Some may not be... Though I don't understand why... If you play mobas competitively, then you play dota or lol.