Arthas - Heroes - HeroesNexus
3 choices every level except 4 and 7. It's not quite equivalent to items, but it gives you build options.
3 choices every level except 4 and 7. It's not quite equivalent to items, but it gives you build options.
Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter Mures
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Well those are passives is what I meant. Granted upon reading some of these, some of them are actually actives that are not skills. So I guess it's alright and I didn't read the right ones. Could use more of them though, if they have a decent enough number of talents though yeah it'd replace items just fine.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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I always found just buying suggested items as newb is "good enough" because you're likely to be all around bad anyway. Removing that makes it easier on the newb (he's still a baddie though) but cuts away alot of depth for everyone else. I dont like that personally but it is what it is. Probably gonna stick to LoL for my DotA fix but who knows, would have to play it first.
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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If there are only a dozen or so items, it becomes pointless to have then at all. If you only have a dozen items then you wouldn't have items like a buckler or the +6 damage claws. You'd have items like daedalus and heart of tarrasque. You wouldn't have 20 different options for attack damage. You'd have 1 or 2 options for each role. And at that point they aren't options they are mandatory. They don't become gameplay options they become hurdles. At that point just roll the items into the heroes themselves and be done with it.
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I'm trying to articulate an answer that isn't "are you fucking stupid" but since I cannot seem to find one, I will instead make a list of a dozen or so items, then ask you if you would always take the same items out of this list with a given hero depending on the state of the game, the map and the enemy team composition, using dota items examples:
Rapier(pure damage item), BKB, Blink Dagger, Boots of Travel, Mekansm, Sheepstick, Blademail, Heart of Tarrasque(pure tank item), Satanic, Aegis, Dagon, Veil of Discord(or something similar, basically spell damage scaling).
You would ALWAYS pick the rapier and the heart on a carry, or the rapier and bkb? You would NEVER consider satanic, blink, sheepstick, dagon or aegis? Cause that sounds like fucking bullshit. That's a dozen of items, as in 12. You could add 3-5more without making it confusing with other effects, maybe variations like mjolnir as a DPS variation and AC as a tank variation, pipe, smoke, deso and any interesting item from other games too like an aoe movespeed item(similar to axe's ult movespeed proc when you kill something, short but high speed burst for the team).
But even with those 12 you have plenty of room to make different item builds even for the same role with the same hero depending on the team setup. While you would often take the rapier on a carry, you might have to take it as your second item instead of your first which already makes a variation, and in some cases you might be forced to not take it in favor of survivavibility and/or because your team doesn't need to be the super carry but instead to actually be able to not die instantly.
As pointed out later in the thread though talents seem to do some of the item stuff I'd want so it's probably not necessary as a system.
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Right and what I'm saying is that either you have a lot of items, or none. Because if you have a dozen items... Then in any given game you'll have half the items available.
But then again if you don't agree with me you could just destroy your own argument by frothing at mouth some more
But then again if you don't agree with me you could just destroy your own argument by frothing at mouth some more
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The post before the one you quoted, I said 2 to 3 items max. You obviously wouldn't have 6slots with 12total items. If you have 2slots and 12items to choose from, it's a choice. You pick what fits better to your playstyle or to the situation, exactly like how in dota you pick what fits best with 6slots but like 50items.
Sulrn
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It is okay. I don't think anyone is arguing for this to be like Dota. Questioning the longevity or possibility for niche success and questioning over-simplification; totally.
Personally, I'm just disappointed that a potential Dota-killer completely ducked the fight and is doing very little to progress the genre - if at all.
khalid
Unelected Mod
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As I said before, the discussion happened from my own mistake, I didn't read all the talent trees and didn't notice some of them actually had a bunch of meaningful active skills which made them offer a fair amount of customization in hero builds, and might offer more if they add more talent later on(might not be complete). I was discussing the removal of uniqueness of builds and customization of heroes by removing items, not the competitiveness of the game, these have nothing to do with each other. While more complexity/depth can make a game more competitive, it's not necessarily true and there's not a direct relationship between them.
In the end, they do have customization, even though it seems very uneven at the time, some heroes have a bunch of actives as talents, others mostly have shitty passives and the amount of talent doesn't even seem to be balanced properly, but it is alpha after all. As such, items removal kinda makes sense since it's replaced by another system that instead of being tied to a secondary progression(gold), is tied to your primary progression(xp) and provides the same effect. When in my example you'd have a shared pool of a dozen of items to choose from, they opted to go with a shared pool of talents but each hero has access to only a certain amount of them(so carry oriented heroes have access to carry talents and so on) with a second pool of hero specific talents. In some ways, it is a more complex system than the one I was discussing, since it requires knowledge of every hero to figure out the right talent build for that particular hero, while a shared pool of items only require knowledge of the few items.
j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Yeah, we'll have to wait and see how it turns out... I mean, on one hand a bunch of passives can be pretty lame, you also have characters like sniper that have mostly passives and he's a beast because of how open he is for new players. He's not as strong as a lot of other characters but anyone can play well with him. It's just a matter of whether or not there's a good balance between passive and active characters
Pretty much. I stopped playing DOTA2 because I don't always have 40 minutes to commit to a match.
Sulrn
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I think the item argument is still a valid one. The talents I looked at all seemed to be on the same template. Minus your choices for heroics, you get 1-3 somewhat (ie not completely) unique choices then the rest are carbon copies. Is it really progression when everyone progresses the same way and at almost exactly the same time?
Really dislike how alpha/beta testing has just become marketing now. Only popular streamers seem to get into this shit.
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Well there's a lot of streamers who have <10 viewers so obviously they weren't actual popular streamers. They do invite high profile streamers though, it's free advertising not sure why they wouldn't.
Their "alpha" is also not really an alpha, what they're testing is the shop and online infrastructure, but the game is in beta already basically. Granted that's still marketing the beta, but that's fine imo, beats having to pay 100bucks to get access to the alpha ^^.