They may revisit to pricing prior to launch. We're still in alpha. I think they'd be better served to keep hero prices low and costume prices high. That way if people want to support the game they can do it cosmetically instead of feeling backed into a corner having to pay real life money to simply have access to the entire game. But as it stands I'm not overly annoyed not having every hero at my disposal.
Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter Mures
- Start date
It doesn't matter which company succeeded and which failed, you said this:
Which implies that the company was so poor that theyneededto charge players for champions, runes, skins, etc. It's probably not true if they were offering Guinsoo a position to ensure that they have a famous name attached to it to attract all the old DotA players. Theychoseto monetize the game the way they did because they were smart, and it shows in how profitable the company is today (not to mention all the copy cat MOBAs that are released every few months now).
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It is greedy. You spent 200$ and spent 1500+ hours, do you have every champion unlocked? Maybe you do I'm not sure what's needed nowadays. I played LoL for a long time a few years ago, probably 1000hours or so. I spent some money, albeit not that much as I had no interest in skins. I was not even halfway through unlocking everything, at the time. Nowadays I probably have like 1/3 of the champions, haven't really checked or played the game in a long time.
It's a greedy system because even when you play a ton, it takes forever to unlock basic content. Champions are basic content. Runes are basic content. You absolutely need a set of runes to compete and you absolutely need a certain amount of champions to even queue in ranked and even more to actually be able to participate at an appreciable level, in my opinion. You don't get to enjoy most of the content the game has to offer quickly unless you pay money. Which is fine, if the amount of money was anything remotely acceptable. Last time I checked, which was only a few months ago, it still takes over 600$ to unlock champions. That's not counting IP boosts to buy rune sets to go with and obviously not cosmetics, which Riot sells a TON of. If tomorrow they stopped selling champions, they could still easily stay afloat just making skins. Would help if they actually monetized cosmetics better too, see dota stuff(announcers, HUD skins, customizable gear).
It's greedy of the players to expect a F2P game to offer all the content? How the fuck is that even an argument? I didn't ask for the game to be F2P. Let me buy the fucking game. I'll pay 60bucks, fuck 100bucks, if I don't have to pay ever again. But that wouldn't be as profitable now would it? I don't have a choice in the matter, I either not spend money and progress slowly or spend a lot of money, more than a normal fucking game and still not have access to everything. Entitled? What I should thank them for making the game more expensive than a normal game because I get to play a demo for FREE? God what generosity, how can I ever repay such kindness? If it wasn't more profitable for the game to be F2P, then it wouldn't be. They're not doing anyone a favor by making it F2P.
The problem isn't having to pay money, the problem is how much money you end up having to pay. As I said, I'm entirely fine with the Smite system and that's what I'd hope for for this, even if it's a full box price or even some sort of weird "life sub" deal shit like with mmo where I have to pay say 100-150bucks upfront. I have no idea why anyone would ever ask for the same system as LoL when it's the fucking worst system. It doesn't have shit all to do with the quality of the game(which I think is fairly high, other than their fucking launcher), how much you can enjoy it, how long you can play and whatever else. I'm only talking about the monetization of the game. Why would you wish for a game to have a system that gets you to pay more, like ever? Do you often complain that you don't pay enough for shit? Fuck if you want to give them money, there's plenty of cosmetics to buy.
Eidal
Molten Core Raider
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I have a friend who agrees with you -- I think maybe why we disagree (or more correctly, why I don't care) is that I don't want all the champions. I can barely play three decently. I have no interest in playing the huge majority of champs. I dislike getting my shit pushed in, and playing a champion proficiently enough to carry at your current MMR takes a while. But you, and my friend, feel that without a 100 percent roster your fun is diminished, so I completely understand why you hate this model.
My friend's argument was that without being able to play the entire roster, he won't learn how to fight them. Maybe he learns differently than I do but playing a champion a handful of times doesn't teach me shit -- LoL's model functions just fine for me, and I would argue, anyone seriously interested in rising through a MOBA ladder would be best served by picking a specific role and learning 2-3 champs for it, then grabbing a few supports and practicing that as well. Unboosted F2P is enough to grab a new champ every so often; if you want to eat everything in the restaurant then pay for it.
Look at the weekly free rotation: ten champions. Are you telling me that you can practice over ten champions a week? That without having access to more you are somehow crippled?
EDIT: Saying that "they'd be just fine selling only skins" seems really ignorant. This reeks of the people rabbling about how minimum wage should be $15. A lot of companies would survive if they cut their profits, but arguing for a corporation to operate out of altruism is ridiculous.
My friend's argument was that without being able to play the entire roster, he won't learn how to fight them. Maybe he learns differently than I do but playing a champion a handful of times doesn't teach me shit -- LoL's model functions just fine for me, and I would argue, anyone seriously interested in rising through a MOBA ladder would be best served by picking a specific role and learning 2-3 champs for it, then grabbing a few supports and practicing that as well. Unboosted F2P is enough to grab a new champ every so often; if you want to eat everything in the restaurant then pay for it.
Look at the weekly free rotation: ten champions. Are you telling me that you can practice over ten champions a week? That without having access to more you are somehow crippled?
EDIT: Saying that "they'd be just fine selling only skins" seems really ignorant. This reeks of the people rabbling about how minimum wage should be $15. A lot of companies would survive if they cut their profits, but arguing for a corporation to operate out of altruism is ridiculous.
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I said I understand for some people it's not a big deal. The thing though is if every champion/hero was free, it wouldn't make a difference for these people. If riot stopped selling champions tomorrow, it wouldn't diminish your experience(you'd probably be angry if you didn't get your money back and shit but that's not very important). The fact they don't let me use every supports in the pool right away does diminish my experience though. Not enough that I didn't play the game, but enough that at some point it annoyed me and I eventually quit the game(also got bored and stuff it wasn't like the only reason).
I didn't say they should only sell skins. I said they could if they wanted, but obviously they'd lose a lot of money, it's no mystery why they're selling champions. They could probably work on improving their benefits from cosmetics by adding more stuff and making it better and shit but that wouldn't be worth the investment at this point, they have so many people playing already there's no reason.
I'm not asking for LoL to change though, that'd be stupid plus I don't play the game anymore and wouldn't even if they changed it. I'm not even dicussing HotS changing, it's very unlikely at this point, Blizzard is content in using the LoL system and it's the right call in terms of profits. I was just saying that they should try to make it better than LoL. Less time per hero or better/cheaper money bundles or both. Currently it's worse, which is fucking bad.
I didn't say they should only sell skins. I said they could if they wanted, but obviously they'd lose a lot of money, it's no mystery why they're selling champions. They could probably work on improving their benefits from cosmetics by adding more stuff and making it better and shit but that wouldn't be worth the investment at this point, they have so many people playing already there's no reason.
I'm not asking for LoL to change though, that'd be stupid plus I don't play the game anymore and wouldn't even if they changed it. I'm not even dicussing HotS changing, it's very unlikely at this point, Blizzard is content in using the LoL system and it's the right call in terms of profits. I was just saying that they should try to make it better than LoL. Less time per hero or better/cheaper money bundles or both. Currently it's worse, which is fucking bad.
Yeah I'm definitely not a fan of free to play. Lol, HOTS, Hearthstone, and more. All fucking expensive as hell if you want to get every card/hero. I'd love to see the stats on how many people actually play the game without paying anything at all because I suspect it's not high enough to warrant charging completionist players 600-1200% more vs. a regular $60.00 box game. There's a reason the industry is moving towards these types of games and it isn't because they want you to have free content......
I don't mind free to play. To me it rewards fun games and punishes bad ones. the old model of paying up front and hoping for the best mainly rewarded marketing.. if the game sucked it didn't matter because they already had your money.
Obviously there are right and wrong ways to do F2P.. but I think the model is a win for both consumers and developers.
Obviously there are right and wrong ways to do F2P.. but I think the model is a win for both consumers and developers.
F2P is amazing if done right. Just look at the amount of content Marvel Heroes pushes out on a monthly basis compared to Diablo 3. The reason? If they don't keep the game fun and engaging you won't play. The only way they make money is if you play. With Diablo3 they already got your money. You're not giving them any more money by playing. So they don't have to immediately fix and add content. I was a critic of F2P until I actively played Marvel Heroes. Then I became a fan.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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Take any pay scheme and you're going to end up with a cross-section of people who aren't a fan of it. F2P works for pvp games since these games really do rely on a ton of meat to churn through. I mean yeah it costs $600 to unlock everything but it also means you have a million more people to play against then if you paid $60 for a box game. It's not going to cost you more then what would have been box price to get a few champs and the runes you need to play at a more competitive level.
It does blow monkey balls if you're a completionist though so it's obviously not for everyone and it sucks when a game you want to enjoy has a pay model you don't agree with.
It does blow monkey balls if you're a completionist though so it's obviously not for everyone and it sucks when a game you want to enjoy has a pay model you don't agree with.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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I think Pyros is coming from a more competitive slant however. He is suggesting that not only is the fact it takes 600 bucks to unlock the cast of a moba is way too much money as an aside issue, but it also has a direct competitive balance impact on the game. In the context of league, it is more difficult to learn heroes which you can't play. Additionally without the entire champion pool you cannot counter pick or craft team wide strategies that require specific champion combinations to be viable. And lastly - league balances its cast more like a MMO - there is 3-5 top tier champs at most for any given role during any given patch. The champions you own might be the ones in that tier - or they might have been there previously and demoted. The time in relegation for a champion is uncertain - your favorite champ just might never be viable again. A game could technically be decided based on limited champion pools before it begins.
I would play League more, if I could access the cast. I honestly believe that Riot would make a shitload of money on skins if their cast became free. People would impulse buy every christmas/pax/easter skin even if it was for champs they don't even play - if they could own it and show it off without having to buy the champ too? With a free cast every skin is available to every player of the game and not just those who already own the hero.
I would play League more, if I could access the cast. I honestly believe that Riot would make a shitload of money on skins if their cast became free. People would impulse buy every christmas/pax/easter skin even if it was for champs they don't even play - if they could own it and show it off without having to buy the champ too? With a free cast every skin is available to every player of the game and not just those who already own the hero.
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Well it's more the completionist aspect and also being able to test everything freely. I think I'd be maybe ok if you could play bot games with every champion(or heroes in hots) so you can test them. And while nice, I don't mean the try mode of hots which isn't doing much other than letting you see for yourself stuff you can watch on a video, you don't actually play the game you just test the skills.
Anyway it's quite a derail and I'm not like completely against that system, I was just saying it's the worst system in the current games I know so it's never a good thing to copy it imo, even though I understand why they do. Dandain you make the point that people would buy more skins, but that's people buying skins. For example I don't buy skins, I spent a decent amount in lol back when I played and I never bought a single skin, only champions. That's because a) I didn't want to spend too much b) cosmetics are utterly pointless to me and that's even more true when I'm missing content(champions). If they unlocked every champion and if I was still playing, I most likely still wouldn't buy skins, or maybe like a couple of the good ones for my favorite champions. And I think I'm not alone in this case, unlocking champions would be a loss because I don't think they'd sell enough skins to compensate for all the people spending money on new champs instead.
From a competitive point of view, I think it's not a very good argument. I mean like "casual competitive" maybe it is, like solo ranked queue and shit but that's not really competitive. Talking actual team vs team competitive, it's fairly easy to unlock what you're gonna use(if you play in a team you only play one role most of the time anyway so you just need one category of champions) and it's likely if you're playing competitive, you play the game 8+hours a day and have been for several months so you'll have most content unlocked(in lol at least, in hots you'd still get fucked assuming they keep adding heroes at a decent pace, due to gold being daily only at the moment once you hit 40). So it doesn't really affect the competitive scene at all.
On HotS itself, I was pleased to see that the massive lag I was getting last weekend was actually probably due to server load/my ISP/somewhere inbetween. During the week I had no issue playing the game and while it's still obviously laggy, it's similar to the lag I experience playing USW on dota or lol, with a very noticeable delay but not that massive that it's unplayable(stutter stepping is annoying as shit though in those conditions so not really playing that well and shit like Kerrigan combo is too time sensitive to do also). They also deployed a fix for the computer stutters in some games, not sure what caused that, but didn't get it since, that was uncommon but the game it happened were fucking awful.
Also got my "gold" back from the bug where I bought DH and didn't get her last week, apparently buying another hero fixed it and now I have DH unlocked as it was meant to be. Bought Malfurion too, liked him, pretty cool skills for a support. Sadly now the heroes left I want are all 10k gold, so not gonna buy them for a while, will probably wait for free rotations to test them first. Kinda want WD though.
Anyway it's quite a derail and I'm not like completely against that system, I was just saying it's the worst system in the current games I know so it's never a good thing to copy it imo, even though I understand why they do. Dandain you make the point that people would buy more skins, but that's people buying skins. For example I don't buy skins, I spent a decent amount in lol back when I played and I never bought a single skin, only champions. That's because a) I didn't want to spend too much b) cosmetics are utterly pointless to me and that's even more true when I'm missing content(champions). If they unlocked every champion and if I was still playing, I most likely still wouldn't buy skins, or maybe like a couple of the good ones for my favorite champions. And I think I'm not alone in this case, unlocking champions would be a loss because I don't think they'd sell enough skins to compensate for all the people spending money on new champs instead.
From a competitive point of view, I think it's not a very good argument. I mean like "casual competitive" maybe it is, like solo ranked queue and shit but that's not really competitive. Talking actual team vs team competitive, it's fairly easy to unlock what you're gonna use(if you play in a team you only play one role most of the time anyway so you just need one category of champions) and it's likely if you're playing competitive, you play the game 8+hours a day and have been for several months so you'll have most content unlocked(in lol at least, in hots you'd still get fucked assuming they keep adding heroes at a decent pace, due to gold being daily only at the moment once you hit 40). So it doesn't really affect the competitive scene at all.
On HotS itself, I was pleased to see that the massive lag I was getting last weekend was actually probably due to server load/my ISP/somewhere inbetween. During the week I had no issue playing the game and while it's still obviously laggy, it's similar to the lag I experience playing USW on dota or lol, with a very noticeable delay but not that massive that it's unplayable(stutter stepping is annoying as shit though in those conditions so not really playing that well and shit like Kerrigan combo is too time sensitive to do also). They also deployed a fix for the computer stutters in some games, not sure what caused that, but didn't get it since, that was uncommon but the game it happened were fucking awful.
Also got my "gold" back from the bug where I bought DH and didn't get her last week, apparently buying another hero fixed it and now I have DH unlocked as it was meant to be. Bought Malfurion too, liked him, pretty cool skills for a support. Sadly now the heroes left I want are all 10k gold, so not gonna buy them for a while, will probably wait for free rotations to test them first. Kinda want WD though.
Arbitrary
Tranny Chaser
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I don't mind a free to play model but at the same time I am absolutely 100% unwilling to play more than one game that uses it. There was a spot where I was playing League of Legends, Hearthstone, and had just installed Loadout and it took a single day for me to reevaluate what I had set myself up for.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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I think you misunderstand, I'd consider league to be pretty competitive if you log in to play ladder and rank up - just because bronze or silver or diamond isn't pro play specifically doesn't mean it isn't a competitive endeavor. A unlocked account is at a much greater advantage to have the runes/champions or both to pick against the entire pool of an opposing players account.
League of Legends designer on why LoL champions aren't free | PC Gamer
His argument is that the balance of league is such that it only makes the top 20 champions relevant picks in any given patch and they give you content by nerfing and buffing the cast, so I guess it sucks if you bought one of the other 90 champions? And when your champ gets nerfed deal with it and buy the next one you need? Personally it busts my fun, you even said you didn't like being restricted from the entire support pool.
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Well solo queue is mostly "casual competitive", and for the most part you can play most champions in it, even though you'll get flamed if you pick out of meta and shit. Bbut if you look at the LoL thread one recent post shows that you can pick in the meta and still make a complete shit team if you don't understand why the champions are picked, like going Nidalee in an engage teamfight setup. I feel it's fairly irrelevant for the pro level.
I did say I hate the system and wished I had every support, but at the same time it's true that for ranked back then all I really needed was to have Sona and Janna unlocked for example. Or if I was playing now, Tresh and Leona, and maybe a 3rd one. Most of the ranked I played was like Akali jungle or Annie mid(back when it was a thing, apparently now she's a support) and I only had 1 replacement for each, Udyr jungle and Oriana mid, and it was fine since I was getting Annie or Akali most of the time anyway(not meta champions so not banned). While I hate that I don't have the choice, I also think it's perfectly viable for solo queue to only have a few heroes. My problem is more, "I wish I had all the supports so I could test them and see which one I really like the most and play that" vs "I need all supports to be able to play the support role".
I mean, in dota I have all the supports, and while I rotate sometimes, most of my games were played with Lion(favorite since HoN), Lina, Rubick, Abaddon and Ogre Magi. I played a bit of other stuff but some supports I only played like 1 or 2 times and didn't like them(treant, wisp). Having them unlocked doesn't really help me. On the other hand, Dota gave me the chance to actually try them in a real game. You could argue LoL does that with the free rotation, but that shit is way too random and a lot of champions are common because they're the cheap ones and they want people to try these to have something to buy early on. I remember back when I played, some champions were available on free rotation like once every 6months, for a week. Shit they were in the process of reworking Eve and she NEVER was on rotation because of it, even though the rework took like over a year.
If they'd let me play bot games with the heroes/champions to try them, that'd fix most of my issues.
Can only agree with Pyros there, every other rotation you'll almost always have Janna or Quinn but will never see Vi or Zack. Well at least they let you test new champions relatively soon after they have been released, Yasuo and Vel'koz appeared in the rotation 3 or so weeks after.
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I think it used to be 2weeks after but yeah they do that, you kinda need to be around when they do though. If you take a break or whatever and come back and there's like 10new champions, your odds of actually getting to play them without checking every week for 6months are very low.
The system works fine as long as you keep playing basically, and especially if you start at launch. If you stop playing for an extended period of time it gets all fucky the next time you start though, and obviously if you're a fresh player it's pretty shitty right away. They don't add champions as often as they used to though so that's something I guess. Maybe they should run stuff like "Come back offer, you haven't logged in 2months, come back and have all champions unlocked for a week!". Could argue you can game the system and have 8 accounts to play every week with all champions unlocked, but with the leveling/rune system in LoL that's not that great.
Btw they invited more people apparently today, check battle.net launcher to see if you're in as mails sometimes are fucked. Seems they're sending invites at fairly random times now.
khalid
Unelected Mod
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Teamliquid has a good writeup of the game. Breaks down all the maps and mechanics and kinda debunks the idea that the game is too simplistic.
Heroes of the Storm: First Impressions
Heroes of the Storm: First Impressions
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I hate Diablo, fucking slow ass motherfucker. If you get in range for the flip he can push people really far but it's kinda like trying to flip people in LoL with Singed without his ult, ghost or flash. You can charge people but it pushes them away before you flip them so it's kinda meh unless you push them into a wall so they don't move too much. His damage output is fucking ridiculously low too.
So far out of the tanks I've played, ETC is way above the rest. Motherfucker has a stun charge then an aoe pushback to split the enemy team, provides good support auras(everytime you cast every allies around gets 25%attackspeed and you can talent 25%movespeed too), is fairly tanky since he has a self heal and his ultimate is gamebreaking in the same way enigma's ult is. His damage output is reasonable too with his passive.
Also basically atm the game is unplayable on weekends for me, which pretty much sucks since there's a 50% bonus xp on weekends.
So far out of the tanks I've played, ETC is way above the rest. Motherfucker has a stun charge then an aoe pushback to split the enemy team, provides good support auras(everytime you cast every allies around gets 25%attackspeed and you can talent 25%movespeed too), is fairly tanky since he has a self heal and his ultimate is gamebreaking in the same way enigma's ult is. His damage output is reasonable too with his passive.
Also basically atm the game is unplayable on weekends for me, which pretty much sucks since there's a 50% bonus xp on weekends.