Heroes of the Storm

Drtyrm_sl said:

I think the issue Heroes has is that a lot of depth in premades will not get you a popular game. The vast majority of your playerbase (95%?) will not be doing premade 5's.

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Solo in any type of MOBA game is pretty miserable though. I don't think it's a trait unique to Heroes. You feel it more in Heroes right now because the player base is new *and* there's not a whole lot of high MMR players doing solo queue. Multiply the player base out 50x to 100x, and put in a proper ranked mode (ie: solo only) for solo queue, and I think a lot of the issues people have with solo queue disappear.

Your average player isn't going to know how to play the game well until there's a ton of resources out there for them to follow. That alone is going to torpedo the quality of your games.

Honest question, because I haven't found it in HoTS yet: What is there in solo queue that you can work on that will keep you playing through bad games? In League, for instance, even if I get a shitty team I can practice my CS, work on my warding, etc. Stuff that's quantifiable, I'm getting better at this. If I dumpster a lane and am up 50+ CS there's a good chance I can make it a competitive game. I haven't seen that in the admittedly small amount of HoTS games I've played.

Almost everyone I know that's gotten into the alpha has had the same complaint, maybe it's just because we're all long time LoL/Dota players. It was my main fear from the start when I heard no CS/items/shared exp, and unfortunately it's played out exactly that way. It's a game that seems like it will be fun in a premade on Skype.

ZProtoss_sl said:

Lets be clear - the argument here is not one of complexity, the argument here is one of depth. Complexity and Depth are two very, very different things.

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depthnoun\'depth\

2. complexity and profundity of thought.
"the book has unexpected depth"

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Depth may not necessarily constitute complexity; however complexity can translate to depth. They're not as different as you think, my friend.

Basically every mechanic you mentioned (landing skillshots on a personal level, landing proper combos between teammates, zoning people out, isolating targets, proper heal prioritization, proper utilization of up to 5 cooldowns on top of your qwerd, initiation/counter initation, timing when to go for things based on levels/objectives) already exists in other MOBA counterparts with the main difference being the overall game pacing.

A combination of Aeon of Strife, DotA and LoL has entertained me for almost a decade now. HoTS got boring after less than 3 days. The next time you go to make some obnoxious 'this post is full of shit' eye-rolling rhetoric you may want to consider that the quality of a game is completely subjective. Cheers.

This game feels like a boring hero arena with bases

Skrala_sl said:

Honest question, because I haven't found it in HoTS yet: What is there in solo queue that you can work on that will keep you playing through bad games? In League, for instance, even if I get a shitty team I can practice my CS, work on my warding, etc. Stuff that's quantifiable, I'm getting better at this. If I dumpster a lane and am up 50+ CS there's a good chance I can make it a competitive game. I haven't seen that in the admittedly small amount of HoTS games I've played.

Almost everyone I know that's gotten into the alpha has had the same complaint, maybe it's just because we're all long time LoL/Dota players. It was my main fear from the start when I heard no CS/items/shared exp, and unfortunately it's played out exactly that way. It's a game that seems like it will be fun in a premade on Skype.

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Nothing really. That is the big flaw with HotS. It is MUCH more team oriented than other MOBAs. Its going to be premade or bust, imo.

Skrala_sl said:

Honest question, because I haven't found it in HoTS yet: What is there in solo queue that you can work on that will keep you playing through bad games? In League, for instance, even if I get a shitty team I can practice my CS, work on my warding, etc. Stuff that's quantifiable, I'm getting better at this. If I dumpster a lane and am up 50+ CS there's a good chance I can make it a competitive game. I haven't seen that in the admittedly small amount of HoTS games I've played.

Almost everyone I know that's gotten into the alpha has had the same complaint, maybe it's just because we're all long time LoL/Dota players. It was my main fear from the start when I heard no CS/items/shared exp, and unfortunately it's played out exactly that way. It's a game that seems like it will be fun in a premade on Skype.

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The only thing I can see you working on in this game is timing (when to move from lane and do objectives v. pushing out a lane) and overall positioning in team fights.

Does the game have a meta? Timing the transition from an early game to mid game and into late game is largely based on a meta. The meta dictates, for the most part, how the general flow of the game goes because the nature of a meta is that the player base pretty much agrees this is how the game is played on a macro level. If there isn't a meta, then timing is irrelevant in a solo queue aspect.

When I say meta, I mean meta in a very broad and loose term.

Also, does this game have a standard map everyone plays yet?

Draegan_sl said:

Does the game have a meta? Timing the transition from an early game to mid game and into late game is largely based on a meta. The meta dictates, for the most part, how the general flow of the game goes because the nature of a meta is that the player base pretty much agrees this is how the game is played on a macro level. If there isn't a meta, then timing is irrelevant in a solo queue aspect.

When I say meta, I mean meta in a very broad and loose term.

Also, does this game have a standard map everyone plays yet?

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Why do you need a meta to dictate a flow of a game?

I appreciate that you really seem to be in love with HoTS ZProtoss, but what level of skill do you play League or Dota at? You seem to believe that the first 10-20 minutes of a Dota or LoL game are merely forced repeatable tedium to get to the fun part of the game. HoTS can be an absolutely great casual game, I think it honestly will be. But trying to make the case that it has comparable depth or complexity to League or Dota is an argument that I don't think can successfully be made. I perceive your experience in HoTS to be filled with premade try harding based on your posts.

The only really major thing that Blizzard is doing that doesn't involve removing gameplay aspects, is making maps that have wildly different win conditions or mechanics. There is a reason the symmetry of the dota / league map are so similar and its not because people haven't tried to change the design or test out new maps. Its also telling that people play thousands of games on the same map. Summaries of the maps I've read in this thread and others seem to rate them as quite busted to quite balanced.

You also state that League and Dota are "miserable games solo" - they just aren't - or people wouldn't play them like they do.

Draegan_sl said:

Does the game have a meta? Timing the transition from an early game to mid game and into late game is largely based on a meta. The meta dictates, for the most part, how the general flow of the game goes because the nature of a meta is that the player base pretty much agrees this is how the game is played on a macro level. If there isn't a meta, then timing is irrelevant in a solo queue aspect.

When I say meta, I mean meta in a very broad and loose term.

Also, does this game have a standard map everyone plays yet?

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It has 4 maps. They are all pretty good.

The first is a pirate one where you kill the "jungle" and fight over chests that spawns for coins that you carry around with you. If you die, you lose the coins. The goal is to turn them in to a pirate who bombards the enemy base.
The second is the dragon one. Three lanes with a capture point at the bottom and top lane. If you cap the points, and click on a statue in the midlane, you become a dragon that wrecks structures for about a minute.
The third is the curse one. Randomly around the map, capture objectives spawn. If you get 3 of them, the enemy towers stop attacking and all their lane minions get 1 hp.
The last one is the one shown at BlizzCon. You have 2 lanes. Every once in a while the mines open open and you kill jungle like minions (easy ones) to collect skulls. There is also a LoL dragon like boss in the mines that drops a bunch of skulls.

As for the meta, it is developing. The best example is on the mines map. People are letting the first mines sit there, and opting instead to take control of all mercenary camps and really push the opponents base. Some people send 1 in the mines and try to defend. Others send 5 in and try to do it as quick as possible. There isn't really enough good players playing to know which one is the "best" but folks are trying a lot of different stuff.

Dandain_sl said:

I appreciate that you really seem to be in love with HoTS ZProtoss, but what level of skill do you play League or Dota at? You seem to believe that the first 10-20 minutes of a Dota or LoL game are merely forced repeatable tedium to get to the fun part of the game. HoTS can be an absolutely great casual game, I think it honestly will be. But trying to make the case that it has comparable depth or complexity to League or Dota is an argument that I don't think can successfully be made. I perceive your experience in HoTS to be filled with premade try harding based on your posts.

The only really major thing that Blizzard is doing that doesn't involve removing gameplay aspects, is making maps that have wildly different win conditions or mechanics. There is a reason the symmetry of the dota / league map are so similar and its not because people haven't tried to change the design or test out new maps. Its also telling that people play thousands of games on the same map. Summaries of the maps I've read in this thread and others seem to rate them as quite busted to quite balanced.

You also state that League and Dota are "miserable games solo" - they just aren't - or people wouldn't play them like they do.

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I can't speak for DotA because I havent played it very much, but I usually characterize LoL's early game as a 1v1 (bot lane 2v2) with the wildcard of jungle, mid game as objective control (primarily dragon) and end game team-fighting (generally around baron). I understand that those terms are loose, but in broad strokes, that is the gist of the game. There is no 1v1 (2v2) phase in HotS. It is just skipped entirely, so the game jumps straight to what is the equivalent of fighting for the dragon. One map is very skirmishy (the Pirate map), one is very lane based (the dragon map), one is teamfight based (the curse map), and one is what I have been thinking of as "macro strategy" which is the mine map. All of the maps are designed around giving the players too many objectives that they can hold at once, so the key is always picking the most efficient thing.

Overall, the most efficient path is usually map objectives > mercs (jungle) > lane exp > pushing. So, when comparing LoL and HotS, I'll say this. There is more micro / 1v1 individual match ups / map awareness required in LoL. Many people will stop there and write off HotS as being less "skilled" but where HotS excels is in the macro strategy / timing of spawns / careful choice of objectives. I would say that the best HotS player in the world would probably be someone like TheOddOne, who can keep track of all spawns, knows at a macro level what is the most efficient thing to do at any given time. The shot callers / team fighters will probably like HotS better and find it more rewarding. Players that excel in 1v1 situations or who generally employ strats centered around farming up and great trading to win the CS battle (i.e. players like Faker) will not find the game as fun or as deep.

That's just my two cents. I am a gold LoL player, for what it is worth, so not dominating by any stretch, but I played a lot and followed the pro scene very closely until recently.

One final thing not to take likely is that the average game time for HotS is from 15-20 minutes, where LoL is from 35-45 minutes. That is a really welcome change IMO because squeaking in a LoL match means you basically need at least an hour from start to finish. You can count on half that for a HotS match.

an accordion_sl said:

Why do you need a meta to dictate a flow of a game?

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Because these games typically follow a pattern of play. That pattern or "flow" of a game is pretty much what a meta is in it's simplest form. With a defined meta, even if it's a loose one, allows you to practice your game and put yourself in situations that are more recognizable in future games.

did they ever announce when I can buy in yet? want to play me some diablo!

mures_sl said:

This game is really starting to grow on me. After watching some lcs I felt like playing something competitive and after logging back into lol for the first time in months/years realized I really didn't feel like learning items or builds, so I logged back into this and it fills that competitive void nicely and I don't feel gimped just because I'm not studying the game outside of playing the game.

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If you feel that itch to play something competitive in the moba genre with a slightly new edge then you should also give Smite a try

Woo! Got into the technical alpha. Excited, but this is my first MOBA

Neph_sl said:

Woo! Got into the technical alpha. Excited, but this is my first MOBA

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Add me if you want a newbie to learn with Neph, I think I know what I'm doing.

Cool. My gaming time is really sporadic bc I'm usually spending time with my wife in the evenings. But I'm free this Saturday night, so I should be on. Xaldren#1414

I'm actually really surprised I got in. My beta profile settings literally has Intel HD Graphics 4000 (Mac Mini) as I never updated it for my Macbook Pro... I guess they have to test all kinds of systems, but the tutorials ran pretty well on the mini this morning.

So yea... no time to play and shitty computer in the beta profile = technical alpha invite? Whatever, I'll take it. And no, I'm not loaning my account out.

Played a bunch this weekend and just hit level 12. The game is really fun with minor hiccups when rejoining games. I tossed them ~$40 for the hero bundle just to try out a bunch of different ones, but I still have about half of the roster locked. I've been playing mostly Warrior or Support and my favorites so far are Tyrael and Tyrande. I'm not a big fan of squishy dps chars, so I've mostly avoided them.

I really like Tyrael's skill set in that he can give your teammates a damage shield, but also has a lot of nice hero killing skills with his ult, q, and e abilities. I tried his invuln ult once, but hated it, it might be good in organized teams though.

Tyrande I'm kinda meh on, but she's my favorite support char that I own. She takes a lot of skill to be able to hit with her skillshot (and I miss often). The owl is kinda nice for scouting incoming enemies. But her heal doesn't feel very powerful, even with the talent that improves it by 40% when your hp is +90%.

Diablo is pretty fun with his charge and suplex. But his fire stomp is kinda meh (good for killing skeleton packs in the mines though).

Sonya (D3 barb) is probably my least favorite hero. Her abilities just don't feel right. She can pull herself into enemies and Seismic Slam them, but the range is so short and you can't target the ground with it. Whirlwind doesn't feel that great either.

I have almost 8k gold now though. I'm thinking about buying Li Li to swap for Tyrande. Maybe ETC for Tyrael.