How dirty are college sports and the NCAA?

Royal · Mar 3, 2015

Well the federal government could, theoretically. It has a lot of coercive tools at it's disposal to force the issue on the leagues. Antitrust law, tax considerations, and whatnot. You could actually make the case from a conservative point of view that state run institutions shouldn't be in the sports entertainment business. None of that matters though because no one has any compelling political interest in stirring up the hornet's nest by fucking with people's college football and basketball.

So realistically, probably no one can.

Xequecal · Mar 3, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
They probably can't be much more useless than the legions of hotel & restaurant management/human development/general studies majors that athletes enroll in now.

Division I NCAA football is a >40 hour/week commitment. It's pretty much impossible for these athletes to get any kind of degree of substance, they don't have time to study.

This is also why academic fraud gets overlooked. You literally can't field a competitive team in Division I unless you do it. How are you going to find 50 football players that have the genetics required to compete at that level, the drive required to train >40 hours a week, attend classes, and study, as well as the intelligence required to pass the classes?

Football is just pure bullshit to begin with. 80% of NFL players file for bankruptcy within 10 years of retirement, and over 50% suffer from lifelong chronic health problems related to their football tenure. Even the people that MAKE the long shot still get fucked. Everyone else that played college football and didn't get to go pro is dumped into the world with a worthless degree and a gigantic sense of entitlement, they're fucked beyond belief.

Burnesto · Mar 3, 2015

Actually they do have time to study if they feel like it. Craig Krenzel graduated with a degree in molecular genetics, for instance.

Royal · Mar 3, 2015

Xequecal_sl said:
This is also why academic fraud gets overlooked. You literally can't field a competitive team in Division I unless you do it. How are you going to find 50 football players that have the genetics required to compete at that level, the drive required to train >40 hours a week, attend classes, and study, as well as the intelligence required to pass the classes?

From a talent pool at the high school level where these same athletes were often shuffled through with minimal resistance as well. It worked well for a long time, but it seems that we have finally arrived at the point where the marriage of education to competitive athletics is living up to it's worst potential.

Xequecal · Mar 3, 2015

Burnesto_sl said:
Actually they do have time to study if they feel like it. Craig Krenzel graduated with a degree in molecular genetics, for instance.

There's always outliers. There's also a reason one of the first things any university admissions office will tell you is, "Don't even think about working full time while going to school full time."

Xequecal · Mar 3, 2015

Royal_sl said:
From a talent pool at the high school level where these same athletes were often shuffled through with minimal resistance as well. It worked well for a long time, but it seems that we have finally arrived at the point where the marriage of education to competitive athletics is living up to it's worst potential.

It worked "well" before because it used to be that simply having a college degree put you in the top 10-20% of the country. Simply having one guaranteed you a decent job. Sure, maybe you cheated your way through it. Prospective employers didn't know that. Today the college degree is the new high school diploma, everyone has them and you need a college degree to work in a call center these days.

Fadaar · Mar 3, 2015

Could always join the military and learn a useful skill. I went to college before the Air Force but didn't graduate, now I've got a job making $60k a year thanks to my job in the military with a good promotion ladder.

Royal · Mar 3, 2015

Xequecal_sl said:
It worked "well" before because it used to be that simply having a college degree put you in the top 10-20% of the country. Simply having one guaranteed you a decent job. Sure, maybe you cheated your way through it. Prospective employers didn't know that. Today the college degree is the new high school diploma, everyone has them and you need a college degree to work in a call center these days.

I think it has more to do with the fact that competitive athletics in the major sports as become much, much more time intensive and this is proliferating it's way down all the way to pre-high school level. Men used to play pro football and still have a job outside of that. These days, you have Korean girls who stop attending school at age 8 and train in golf 7 days a week.

Oblio · Mar 3, 2015

Xequecal_sl said:
Division I NCAA football is a >40 hour/week commitment. It's pretty much impossible for these athletes to get any kind of degree of substance, they don't have time to study.

This is also why academic fraud gets overlooked. You literally can't field a competitive team in Division I unless you do it. How are you going to find 50 football players that have the genetics required to compete at that level, the drive required to train >40 hours a week, attend classes, and study, as well as the intelligence required to pass the classes?

Everyone else that played college football and didn't get to go pro is dumped into the world with a worthless degree and a gigantic sense of entitlement, they're fucked beyond belief.

The above quote tells me that you did not play Football at a Major University. Yes, it is hard to manage and at times you feel stretched very thin but you can definitely manage to get a degree of substance. Let's also be honest that unless you are going into a very specialized field (i.e. Medicine or Law) your degree does not matter. For the most part your degree shows employers that you are capable of learning and being committed to something. Most jobs will train you how to do whatever it is you need to do. There are no college courses for Bank Manager or Grocery Store Manager or Car Salesman etc.

That last sentence I quoted/bolded just makes my head hurt. I do not think I have seen a more uniformed generalization about former college football players that have a degree. In fact I would wager that many employers would seek to hire former players because they understand hard work and being a part of a team.

I have no beef with you Xequecal I will assume you are a good guy that just said some stupid shit because we have all been there and done that, but HOLY SHIT you really said some dumb shit.

Xequecal · Mar 3, 2015

Oblio_sl said:
The above quote tells me that you did not play Football at a Major University. Yes, it is hard to manage and at times you feel stretched very thin but you can definitely manage to get a degree of substance. Let's also be honest that unless you are going into a very specialized field (i.e. Medicine or Law) your degree does not matter. For the most part your degree shows employers that you are capable of learning and being committed to something. Most jobs will train you how to do whatever it is you need to do. There are no college courses for Bank Manager or Grocery Store Manager or Car Salesman etc.

That last sentence I quoted/bolded just makes my head hurt. I do not think I have seen a more uniformed generalization about former college football players that have a degree. In fact I would wager that many employers would seek to hire former players because they understand hard work and being a part of a team.

I have no beef with you Xequecal I will assume you are a good guy that just said some stupid shit because we have all been there and done that, but HOLY SHIT you really said some dumb shit.

I still maintain that people that have both the maturity and drive to commit 80 hours/week to both studying and football at fucking age 18 are an extreme minority at best.

The recruitment process for in demand Division 1 football players routinely involves plying them with booze and finding a half dozen chicks to fuck them on their recruitment visit. While they are on the football team, they are pretty much king shit on campus and can commit major crimes without consequence, as it will be swept under the rug.

Gilgamel · Mar 3, 2015

The idea that athletes can't get a good degree is hilarious. You have no idea the advantages they have when it comes to a major university. Many professors will give one on one or small group sessions to athletes who miss class, essentially re-teaching the material, and they have access to the best tutors on campus.

Oblio · Mar 4, 2015

Xequecal_sl said:
I still maintain that people that have both the maturity and drive to commit 80 hours/week to both studying and football at fucking age 18 are an extreme minority at best.

The recruitment process for in demand Division 1 football players routinely involves plying them with booze and finding a half dozen chicks to fuck them on their recruitment visit. While they are on the football team, they are pretty much king shit on campus and can commit major crimes without consequence, as it will be swept under the rug.

Your numbers are WAY off, playing ball and going to school does not add up to 80 hours a week. When school is in session you are limited to 20 hours a week of practice including the games. Now sure there are some bending of the rules on what exactly is reported, but as a whole they are followed pretty closely. Allow for a 10-20% cheating on those hours and you are at 22-24 hours a week, not 40.

Those 20 hours do not include film study which I think most starters would want to put in an additional 5-10 hours a week. Some 2nd string guys will match that and in my experience only a handful of 3rd string or lower will bother with extra film time. So add 10 hours of film study for say the starting QB and you are looking at 30+ hours a week of football related activities.

I am sure you think I am proving your point, but you are wrong and here is why...

Regarding school, almost no one takes a full load of hard classes during their season. I went to a school that was on the quarter system and I was required to take 12 credits to be considered a full time student and be eligible. I also, like many others red shirted my first year basically giving me 5 years to graduate. My first Quarter at school I took 15 credits because I knew I was red-shirting I believe the classes I took where very general and fairly easy, classes like Geology 101, Psych 101 and World History 101. I remember my counselor told me and many of my classmates to ease in to college life because that 1st quarter would be culture shock. He said the Winter and Spring Quarters were for your degree the Fall Quarter was for electives and maybe one class in your major. I think I had 10 hours mandatory study hall that 1st Quarter which put me at 25 hours of school, more than enough to pull good grades. So in total I was between 40-50 hours a week school and ball, very manageable. I also took at least one class every Summer Quarter to because that way I still got a Scholarship Check. By my 5th year I was done with my degree and took one 2 credit pass/fail class during Football Season. I was volunteering at an Elementary School few days a week that had kids with horrible home/living situations and I had to write a paper about my time there.

As far as your claims about recruiting I would tell you that you watch too many bad movies because that is not the norm. I hosted many recruits in my time and the coaches gave me the allowed $20 to take them out after dinner. Yes, I bought alcohol shit like Keystone Ice or Pabst Blue Ribbon which left us perhaps $10 to grab burger a 2am. At no time did I or anyone I hosted with arrange for a recruit to get laid. If a recruit got laid on a trip it was purely on him and his game, looks etc. I am not naive enough to say that never happened at any school ever, but it is NOT the norm.

I almost feel stupid for arguing with you because it is obvious you are just ignorant on this subject. Yes, the shit you claim can and probably has happened but it is the exception and not the rule.

Commander Vimeseh_sl · Mar 4, 2015

Not even looking at it from the sports side of things, but barring certain high end educational fields who is even spending forty hours a week on actual school stuff? Running 12 to 16 credit hours per semester would leave you with 24-28 hours a week of studying or outside class work to hit forty. Sure finals or term periods might put you up there time wise but over your average semester I don't think I ever spent more then ten hours a week doing required reading or work.

radditsu · Mar 4, 2015

Oblio_sl said:
Your numbers are WAY off, playing ball and going to school does not add up to 80 hours a week. When school is in session you are limited to 20 hours a week of practice including the games. Now sure there are some bending of the rules on what exactly is reported, but as a whole they are followed pretty closely. Allow for a 10-20% cheating on those hours and you are at 22-24 hours a week, not 40.

Those 20 hours do not include film study which I think most starters would want to put in an additional 5-10 hours a week. Some 2nd string guys will match that and in my experience only a handful of 3rd string or lower will bother with extra film time. So add 10 hours of film study for say the starting QB and you are looking at 30+ hours a week of football related activities.

I am sure you think I am proving your point, but you are wrong and here is why...

Regarding school, almost no one takes a full load of hard classes during their season. I went to a school that was on the quarter system and I was required to take 12 credits to be considered a full time student and be eligible. I also, like many others red shirted my first year basically giving me 5 years to graduate. My first Quarter at school I took 15 credits because I knew I was red-shirting I believe the classes I took where very general and fairly easy, classes like Geology 101, Psych 101 and World History 101. I remember my counselor told me and many of my classmates to ease in to college life because that 1st quarter would be culture shock. He said the Winter and Spring Quarters were for your degree the Fall Quarter was for electives and maybe one class in your major. I think I had 10 hours mandatory study hall that 1st Quarter which put me at 25 hours of school, more than enough to pull good grades. So in total I was between 40-50 hours a week school and ball, very manageable. I also took at least one class every Summer Quarter to because that way I still got a Scholarship Check. By my 5th year I was done with my degree and took one 2 credit pass/fail class during Football Season. I was volunteering at an Elementary School few days a week that had kids with horrible home/living situations and I had to write a paper about my time there.

As far as your claims about recruiting I would tell you that you watch too many bad movies because that is not the norm. I hosted many recruits in my time and the coaches gave me the allowed $20 to take them out after dinner. Yes, I bought alcohol shit like Keystone Ice or Pabst Blue Ribbon which left us perhaps $10 to grab burger a 2am. At no time did I or anyone I hosted with arrange for a recruit to get laid. If a recruit got laid on a trip it was purely on him and his game, looks etc. I am not naive enough to say that never happened at any school ever, but it is NOT the norm.

I almost feel stupid for arguing with you because it is obvious you are just ignorant on this subject. Yes, the shit you claim can and probably has happened but it is the exception and not the rule.

I got a player laid on one of my recruitment visits. Otherwise coaches just show you the campus and ask about grades a lot.

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How dirty are college sports and the NCAA?

Royal

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Xequecal

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Burnesto

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Royal

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Xequecal

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Royal

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Oblio

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Xequecal

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Gilgamel

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Oblio

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Commander Vimeseh_sl

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radditsu

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