Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? *sigh*

hodj

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Eh I dunno man. I think that's debatable. There's a lot of stuff in them there holy books that seems awful similar to the bad stuff we see humans acting out.

The way I would put it is all religions are man made, and so they reflect both the good and bad aspects of our nature. Art imitating life imitating art.

I respect your opinion though. I think its well formulated and sound based on the way you perceive the world, especially if you're involved in religious charitable organizations and the like.

And athiests could do a lot more in terms of forming charities and stuff of their own. Though I think they do have fairly high rates of charitable donations, just sitting back throwing money at problems isn't remotely as helpful as actually digging in and engaging in some actual charitable work.
 

lurkingdirk

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Yes, atheists can and do accomplish a lot of good in the world. And good for them. What the difference should be for Christians and Muslims and Jews is that their Gods call them to do it. It isn't just a humanitarian desire to do good, it's a call to live in a certain way. Look in the books adequately, and develop a deep enough understanding of them, and I do not believe that any of the organised religions are calling any person to do harm. The KKK grew out of "Christian" beliefs. Except that they were twisted, distorted views on Christianity. The people who flew planes into building did so because of "Islamic" beliefs. Except that they were twisted, distorted views of Islam.

Meh, this is a discussion better had over beer than on an internet forum. Take this for what is means to you: the heart of the law in the Old Testament is to love God with your heart and soul, and in the New Testament, it is to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself. If you are going to live as a Christian, and live those things out well, imagine how different the world could look.

And, because of the things I am involved with, I see some evidence of those things happening.

geeeehsadshpafalihkd This is all simple stuff, hey?
 
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I wish we had a viable religion thread. Doesn't feel right to use the atheism thread and the two actual religion threads that got started were trolled to pieces in the first two pages.

Regarding your comment about pope Francis lurking, I really enjoyed his speech to the European union. Especially the portion about our responsibility to nature. That part is rather far in though and it is a lengthy read.

Pope Francis: Address to European Parliament Vatican Radio
 

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So what you're saying lurk is that religion is still duping some idiots who would otherwise be hateful misanthropes into being generous charitable people and only taking 10-15% off the top so we should keep it going?
 

hodj

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I mean I've read the Bible, and studied it pretty thoroughly. God straight out commands children's heads be dashed against stones, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, Jesus agrees that all the old laws should be followed, the Quran explicitly calls for the deaths of infidels and nonbelievers, so forth and so on. I think there's a lot of apologetics and excuse making for these types of passages in these holy books, because these passages no longer fit with modern sensibilities in modern societies.

Its "Big Book of Multiple Choice" playing. Toss out the parts inconvenient to the context of the culture you find yourself in, and keep the stuff that isn't so radical it makes you a pariah. Its funny that we label the people who most closely follow the tenants of their religions the radicals, the extremists, etc.

We can agree to disagree on that point, its a soft one for believers and hard for a non believer to go into without hurting some feelings, so I'll avoid it.
 

hodj

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Religions tend to morph with their cultures. Unless you are a solar scriptura adherent then the discussion shouldn't be particularly painful.
That's just another argument for the fact that these beliefs are made up by men, and not bequethed to them by gods.
 
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That's just another argument for the fact that these beliefs are made up by men, and not bequethed to them by gods.
Or that things can change over time, like what we need to hear and understand in order to have a solid faith. However I have no prove of that so it isn't like I can give you a factual argument.
 

hodj

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Or that things can change over time, like what we need to hear and understand in order to have a solid faith. However I have no prove of that so it isn't like I can give you a factual argument.
God is unchanging, why should His word need to change?

These are the sorts of tough questions I had to ask myself, to ensure I was being intellectually honest when considering where I stood on religion, so don't think I'm hammering you with them trying to be unfair to you.

I think all followers of the various forms of particularly the Abrahamist religious beliefs need to think really long and hard on the Problem of Evil, to see if they can reach an intellectually honest answer to the question.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
While not the only reason I am a non believer, its certainly among them.

Sam Harris really lays in out in this debate with William Lane Craig, the sort of real fundamental problem with the Abrahamist religions.


Ask yourselves, what is wrong with spending eternity in Hell? Well, I, I'm told it's rather hot there, for one. Dr. Craig is not offering an alternative view of morality. Ok, the whole point of Christianity, or so it is imagined, is to safeguard the eternal well-being of human souls. Now, happily, there's absolutely no evidence that the Christian Hell exists. I think we should look at the consequences of believing in this framework, this theistic framework, in this world, and what these moral underpinnings actually would be.

Alright, 9 children die every year before they reach the age of five. ok, picture, picture an Asian tsunami of the sort we saw in 2004, that killed a quarter of a million people. One of those, every ten days, killing children only under five. Ok, that's 20, 24,000 children a day, a thousand an hour, 17 or so a minute. That means before I can get to the end of this sentence, some few children, very likely, will have died in terror and agony. Ok, think of, think of the parents of these children. Think of the fact that most of these men and women believe in God, and are praying at this moment for their children to be spared. And their prayers will not be answered. Ok, but according to Dr. Craig, this is all part of God's plan.

Any God who would allow children by the millions to suffer and die in this way, and their parents to grieve in this way, either can do nothing to help them, or doesn't care to. He is therefore either impotent or evil. And worse than that, on Dr. Craig's view, most of these people - many of these people, certainly - will be going to Hell because they're praying to the wrong God. Just think about that. Ok, through no fault of their own, they were born into the wrong culture, where they got the wrong theology, and they missed the revelation.

Ok, there are 1.2 billion people in India at this moment. Most of them are Hindus, most of them therefore are polytheists. Ok, in Dr. Craig's universe, no matter how good these people are, they are doomed. If you are, if you are praying to the Monkey God Hanuman, you are doomed, ok. You'll be tortured in Hell for eternity. Now, is there the slightest evidence for this? No. It just says so in Mark 9, and Matthew 13, and Revelation 14. Ok, perhaps you'll remember from The Lord of the Rings, it says when the elves die, they go to Valanor, but they can be reborn in Middle Earth. I say that just as a point of comparison.

Ok, so God created the cultural isolation of the Hindus, ok. He engineered the circumstance of their deaths in ignorance of revelation, and then he created the penalty for this ignorance, which is an eternity of conscious torment in fire. Ok.

On the other hand, on Dr. Craig's account, your run-of-the-mill serial killer in America, ok, who - who spent his life raping and torturing children, need only come to God, come to Jesus, on Death Row, and after a final meal of fried chicken, he's going to spend an eternity in Heaven after death, ok.

One thing should be crystal clear to you: This vision of life has absolutely nothing to do with moral accountability.

Ok, and please notice the double standard that people like Dr. Craig use to - to exonerate God from all this evil, ok. We're told that God is loving, and kind, and just, and intrinsically good; but when someone like myself points out the rather obvious and compelling evidence that God is cruel and unjust, because he visits suffering on innocent people, of a scope and scale that would embarrass the most ambitious psychopath, we're told that God is mysterious, ok. "Who can understand God's will?" Ok and yet, this is precisely-this, this, this "merely human" understanding of God's will, is precisely what believers use to establish his goodness in the first place. You know, something good happens to a Christian, some - he feels some bliss while praying, say, or he sees some positive change in his life, and we're told that God is good. Ok. But when children by the tens of thousands are torn from their parents' arms and drowned, we're told that God is mysterious, ok. This is how you play tennis without the net...

...There's no reason to believe that we live in a universe ruled by an invisible monster Yahweh.
 

lurkingdirk

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So, while I have no compunction to defend the religious, I do feel the need to make a couple points that seem relevant to me at this juncture:

1. Those who are religious, and not idiots, will admit that the bible, while they believe it to be divinely inspired, was written by imperfect people, who were thoroughly influenced both by God and by their own historic perspective. You can't simply point to any part of scripture and say, "Look, clearly this is exactly what God wants, and if you think differently, you're a heretical bastard." The moment someone does that with me, conversation is over, and I begin to think that person is dumb. Acknowledge that scripture is a challenging thing to interpret, acknowledge that many mistakes have been made, and move on, together, trying to find the best things for all in religion, in scripture, and in how to live your life. If that's your goal, things will work out.

2. The argument that God could prevent evil if he were all powerful, but he doesn't, so he isn't, is problematic. It is circular arguing. You don't believe God exists because he doesn't act out against things you find evil means that you're ascribing evil to things that you think a just God would act out against. That's you putting limits on what God should or should not do, based on your own sense of morality. If you're basing arguments on morality about a God that doesn't act how your morals dictate, things get tricky.

3. There is something undefined here, something that is faith. It is not something easily defined or understood, but it is also not something to be dismissed.


Edid: sheesh. I reread my own posts and sigh. This is not proselytization, in all honesty. Merely trying to engage in discussion, having a lot of friends who live in this faith about which I speak.
 
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I've watched that before and he does make a compelling argument. Outside of my faith I'm an incredibly logical person. However I still have that faith despite the idea of it being illogical. If i felt that my beliefs were detrimental to my family, my friends, or myself then i would probably begin to question why I believe what I do. But as it is I don't see me partaking in these beliefs as being harmful to anyone so I'm comfortable with where I am at.

Ironically I wasn't raised in a very religious household, or ever had a come to Jesus moment. I've just always been very comfortable with religious studies and the writings of almost every religion fascinate me. I just happen to find the Most sense in Catholicism when starting from the point of having an existing creator.

Edit: lurking makes some good points and you aren't proselytizing. Especially point one which goes along with what I said about sola scriptura.
 

Palum

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2. The argument that God could prevent evil if he were all powerful, but he doesn't, so he isn't, is problematic. It is circular arguing. You don't believe God exists because he doesn't act out against things you find evil means that you're ascribing evil to things that you think a just God would act out against. That's you putting limits on what God should or should not do, based on your own sense of morality. If you're basing arguments on morality about a God that doesn't act how your morals dictate, things get tricky.
Genesis pretty much fundamentally contradicts this though. The entire point was humans could live in paradise until they wanted to have the same 'morality' and sense of right and wrong that god knew about. So at that point, we are once again at 'oh well the Bible is wrong teeheee' or god isn't really.

In before " YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND IT LIKE I DO" counterargument.
 

lurkingdirk

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Genesis pretty much fundamentally contradicts this though. The entire point was humans could live in paradise until they wanted to have the same 'morality' and sense of right and wrong that god knew about. So at that point, we are once again at 'oh well the Bible is wrong teeheee' or god isn't really.

In before " YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND IT LIKE I DO" counterargument.
Or, Genesis is a myth. One designed to help us understand God that was written thousands of years ago in a particular style. And that's not a handicap. Welcome to forward thinking people who can also have faith. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I am now going to step out of this conversation for a while, in order to prevent people from perceiving me as a religious nutjob, which I'm not, and in order for me to not react negatively to people I find intolerant. Please, keep the discussion going. I'll be back.
 

hodj

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So, while I have no compunction to defend the religious, I do feel the need to make a couple points that seem relevant to me at this juncture:

1. Those who are religious, and not idiots, will admit that the bible, while they believe it to be divinely inspired, was written by imperfect people, who were thoroughly influenced both by God and by their own historic perspective. You can't simply point to any part of scripture and say, "Look, clearly this is exactly what God wants, and if you think differently, you're a heretical bastard." The moment someone does that with me, conversation is over, and I begin to think that person is dumb. Acknowledge that scripture is a challenging thing to interpret, acknowledge that many mistakes have been made, and move on, together, trying to find the best things for all in religion, in scripture, and in how to live your life. If that's your goal, things will work out.
See, but the thing is that when you just realize its all fables and myths and has no functional relevance, all that need to go through all those logical leaps and try to find some way to make this book comport with our modern understanding vanishes. All those doubts, all that grasping for some way to make it all make sense, it just vanishes. Poof. Gone. Its no longer a concern. These books are no more real than The Lord of the Rings. A good story, but that's it. Just an old book.

2. The argument that God could prevent evil if he were all powerful, but he doesn't, so he isn't, is problematic. It is circular arguing. You don't believe God exists because he doesn't act out against things you find evil means that you're ascribing evil to things that you think a just God would act out against. That's you putting limits on what God should or should not do, based on your own sense of morality. If you're basing arguments on morality about a God that doesn't act how your morals dictate, things get tricky.
This is a special pleading fallacy. "God's special, he doesn't have to follow the same rules we do". That goes right to the heart ofwhyhe is malevolent. See, if you're a leader, you should be the example. God is as bound by the morality he lays on us as we are, in my view. Otherwise what you have is "Might makes right". "Its okay if God does it, because God makes the rules, so he can break them". Well, no. That's the exact characteristics of a tyrant we despise the most, the double standards. "Do as I say and not as I do". For God to be worthy of worship, he must be logical, and rational, and part of being a logical and rational leader, is not breaking the rules willy nilly that you hold others to. This isexactly what Harris is pointing outin that portion of that debate.

For me, a God that doesn't bear any responsibility to follow the same rules it has laid out for its followers is no better, and in fact worse than, his nemesis. For God to be a moral example, a moral leader, the one who dictates to the universe what is good and just and right, He must follow the same standards, or he's just Kim Jung Il.

3. There is something undefined here, something that is faith. It is not something easily defined or understood, but it is also not something to be dismissed.
I do discount faith entirely. Faith is the excuse people use for believing in things without reason, justification or cause. It is not some magic quantity.

Every single time I read the word "faith" I literally replace it with the phrase "Pretending to know things I can't possibly know." Try it some time. Try it right now, while reading your post. See how convincing it is as a word. That's how Atheists and Non Believers view this word.



Edid: sheesh. I reread my own posts and sigh. This is not proselytization, in all honesty. Merely trying to engage in discussion, having a lot of friends who live in this faith about which I speak.
Dude, you're fine. I've talked to a LOT of religious people. You're not saying anything I haven't heard/seen a million times over. Its another of the flaws of religion, there's really only so many arguments in favor of it, and in my personal opinion, most of them are just apologetics. Apologetics does not exist to convert me. One, they certainly don't work towards that end with people who have come to the conclusion that they are non believers after a serious reflection on these concepts. But far more importantly, apologetics exists to give believers a thread to hang on to, a reason to put those questions up on a shelf, and maintain belief in the face of, in my opinion, overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Or, Genesis is a myth. One designed to help us understand God that was written thousands of years ago in a particular style. And that's not a handicap. Welcome to forward thinking people who can also have faith. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I am now going to step out of this conversation for a while, in order to prevent people from perceiving me as a religious nutjob, which I'm not, and in order for me to not react negatively to people I find intolerant. Please, keep the discussion going. I'll be back.
I promise you, you are fine. What you're doing is completely normal and rational for a believer. You're defending your beliefs, and you should. Just make sure you feel you're being intellectually honest with yourself on the subject, don't worry what other people think.

I've watched that before and he does make a compelling argument. Outside of my faith I'm an incredibly logical person. However I still have that faith despite the idea of it being illogical. If i felt that my beliefs were detrimental to my family, my friends, or myself then i would probably begin to question why I believe what I do. But as it is I don't see me partaking in these beliefs as being harmful to anyone so I'm comfortable with where I am at.

Ironically I wasn't raised in a very religious household, or ever had a come to Jesus moment. I've just always been very comfortable with religious studies and the writings of almost every religion fascinate me. I just happen to find the Most sense in Catholicism when starting from the point of having an existing creator.

Edit: lurking makes some good points and you aren't proselytizing. Especially point one which goes along with what I said about sola scriptura.
I understand and respect you and your opinion as well. I think both of you are much clearer thinkers on your reasons and justifications for your beliefs than a whole lotta other theists I've encountered.

I will say that your honesty here is commendable. There is really only one good argument for believing in religion, and that is that "It makes me feel good to believe there is a god, so I do".

Its the only logically consistent, intellectually honest, and completely undebatable religious position, and I respect believers who are honest enough to say it flat out. "It isn't logical to believe, but I do so because it makes me feel good" is acompletely valid and totally logical position to takein my opinion.
 

lurkingdirk

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Dude, you're fine. I've talked to a LOT of religious people. You're not saying anything I haven't heard/seen a million times over. Its another of the flaws of religion, there's really only so many arguments in favor of it, and in my personal opinion, most of them are just apologetics. Apologetics does not exist to convert me. One, they certainly don't work towards that end with people who have come to the conclusion that they are non believers after a serious reflection on these concepts. But far more importantly, apologetics exists to give believers a thread to hang on to, a reason to put those questions up on a shelf, and maintain belief in the face of, in my opinion, overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I will reply to this, merely to say that I'm not bowing out because I find the discussion untenable, or the points you are making invalid. I'm nowhere near as religious as you think I am, I am merely being a voice for the religious among us, and stating things I know from those incredibly intelligent religious minds I know. I'm merely not going to relentlessly hammer through a multi-page discussion on anything as flammable as religion. We have all made up our minds, and getting nut-job serious over any of it won't change anything.

I have enjoyed our back and forth. May more such discussions happen.
 

hodj

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Yeah and I wasn't trying to imply that's why you were bowing out, nor do I think you're a super religious person, I can tell that just talking to you here about it. You're a very reasonable fellow on the subject.

Its been a good discussion. I've enjoyed it.

You're a good guy dirk.
 
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Thanks Hodj.

I feel comfortable with it and get a sense of fulfillment from it. Not much more to it. But then I don't think there has to be any more. From my perspective religion has played three primary roles in our cultures. Education, comfort, and control. Sadly in the U.S. the controlling aspect has been completely abused. So I understand why a lot of people look at religious faith as a bad thing.
 

hodj

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For the record, you're good people too, Vimeseh.

I enjoyed discussing this with you as well. Its so refreshing to find a believer who is intellectually honest. They are a very rare commodity in the US.
 

Tolan

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I'm nowhere near as religious as you think I am
Unless you're atheist or agnostic, then you're exactly as religious as the next guy. If you kinda maybe believe there's probably a god sometimes, then you are some degree of agnostic. If you really truly, deep down inside, believe there's a god and he knows you and you will some day know him, then you're no less religious than 2-by-2's attempting to assimilate random people by knocking on their doors.
 
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Unless you're atheist or agnostic, then you're exactly as religious as the next guy. If you kinda maybe believe there's probably a god sometimes, then you are some degree of agnostic. If you really truly, deep down inside, believe there's a god and he knows you and you will some day know him, then you're no less religious than 2-by-2's attempting to assimilate random people by knocking on their doors.
I think you and he are using religious differently. While neither of you are technically wrong I feel that you are using it as a simple statement of belief in a creator without any distinction. While he on the other hand is talking more about outward fervor. His worry about being seen to be preachy displays that in my opinion.