Investing General Discussion

Furry

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I did something rare for me and waffled today when the oil stuff started going down, back nearly 100% cash until I better understand the implications. I've never paid much attention to commodities. The credit market is pretty much a trash fire still that isn't showing signs of improving no matter how sayan the fed goes with money, and I don't like two contagions. Ended up back where I started, and heres a run down of how oil markets work.

1. Oil producers have brokers that sell contracts to buyers for future pickup days. At this time, a contract price is agreed upon.
2. Once these future contracts are bought, they can be traded similar to options. Their value can change, but the contract price does not change.
3. On the date specified in the contract, the owner becomes locked in and becomes responsible to pay the contract price to get the oil.

The major difference between these contracts and options is part 3. The person holding the contract at the end must buy the oil for the price specified at the time the contract was made. Reading various versions of contracts for oil, there's a few things worth mentioning. There's a 10% wiggle room in value of delivery that is mandatory to accept. Order 100 barrels, and you have to buy 90 or 110 if either shows up. This gives a little leniancy for failed contracts. Additionally, brokers can optionally allow you to, at their discretion, pay a fee and the difference in cost to accept delivery at a later date. Also, there is usually about a month window in which you can accept delivery via the methods acceptable to the contract, usually limited to pipes connected to their system or berths at ports.

The wiggle room allows both sides to deal with problems on a small scale and be more forgiving to a small % of failed contracts in normal times, but in these times, a failed contract probably will NOT be allowed to escape with the typical fee. After that point, the contract becomes not just worthless, but a liability if you aren't planning on picking up that oil. You are responsible for moving it out, and must often pay things like storage fees, you owe the money in the contract anyways, and that money you don't pay collects interest.

At least that's how I understand it after a few hours of research, and I definitely glossed over some stuff. Someone can feel free to correct me if I got something wrong.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Long story short, commodities and derivatives are deep water pools. Swimming is not advised for amateurs.

What happened with oil reminds me of when everyone was shorting the VIX a few years ago and 99% didn't even know what the VIX was. Contango came into play their too when those ETNs imploded.

With stocks, you may not understand the financials but just about every amateur can look at DIS and go "they charge $5 for a fucking soda and $125 just to talk in the park. And they make those Marvel movies which make billions". It may still be a shitty investment (not judging if it is or isnt), but at least you can have a basic understanding what they are. I wager up until 3 days ago 90% of the people buying USO had never heard the word contango.
 
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LachiusTZ

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Got sucked into a gold and silver YouTube video last night

Shit is pretty compelling, is it faith in the monetary system that keeps you guys from owning physical metal? Stigma?
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Got sucked into a gold and silver YouTube video last night

Shit is pretty compelling, is it faith in the monetary system that keeps you guys from owning physical metal? Stigma?
People are buying a metal that outside of certain industrial uses has no "actual" value. To me it is like BTC except it does actually have a few real world uses.

I consider people buying gold to hedge against a societal collapse when fiat currency is wiped out. I don't think they run the scenario all the way to the end though. If that collapse happens more than likely the government collapses and the only things with actual true value are food, water, medicine, guns and ammo. I dont remember too many Walking Dead scenarios where people are hoarding gold.
 
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karma

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People are buying a metal that outside of certain industrial uses has no "actual" value. To me it is like BTC except it does actually have a few real world uses.

I consider people buying gold to hedge against a societal collapse when fiat currency is wiped out. I don't think they run the scenario all the way to the end though. If that collapse happens more than likely the government collapses and the only things with actual true value are food, water, medicine, guns and ammo. I dont remember too many Walking Dead scenarios where people are hoarding gold.
My BIL was bragging about buying into gold, he joked he would be in good shape financially if the govt collapsed. I laughed, and said I was buying lead. When he asked why, i said If the govt collapses we are pretty fucked, so, I can take what I want from the people that didnt. Including gold. Lucky for all of us these things wont likely be an issue.
 
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LachiusTZ

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People are buying a metal that outside of certain industrial uses has no "actual" value. To me it is like BTC except it does actually have a few real world uses.

I consider people buying gold to hedge against a societal collapse when fiat currency is wiped out. I don't think they run the scenario all the way to the end though. If that collapse happens more than likely the government collapses and the only things with actual true value are food, water, medicine, guns and ammo. I dont remember too many Walking Dead scenarios where people are hoarding gold.

Is it not a hedge vs inflation?

I bought silver after seeing the 40/oz price spike.

Should prolly get some eth / BTC too.

Already have the other items... Lol
 

Sanrith Descartes

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So we are in the resistance zone (50 day) for the SPY and lots of its major components. This should really be the 1st real test of this recovery rally. I can envision us dropping down a good chunk (1st support is around $275, then the 2nd is around $260), or I can also see is just moving sideways for a while bouncing between $285-ish and 275/260. Third option is we break through resistance and keep climbing. I think option 3 is the least likely as I just don't see any fundamental support for the rally to break out higher besides hopium and FOMO.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Is it not a hedge vs inflation?

I bought silver after seeing the 40/oz price spike.

Should prolly get some eth / BTC too.

Already have the other items... Lol
When is the last time we saw real inflation? I think it had a purpose 20 or 30 years ago when we saw real inflation. In today's world? Might be wrong but I just don't see it.
 
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LachiusTZ

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I remember $0.89 crunchy tacos

Edit:. Or was it $0.29?... Lol

I think it was 0.29 crunchy and 0.39 soft, or vice versa.

Point is we have inflation.

What would be the effect if China created a new currency backed by all the gold they have hoarded the past 20 years? I know they have tried to contest the Petro dollar with some Chinese Iranian thing that's never gotten traction.

I'm not going to convert everything into gold and silver, but I do enjoy having some.

And I find it odd with the investing gurus we have, nobody advocates for it esp in an economic crisis
 
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Locnar

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Look at Palladium, in 10 years it went from 200 to 2000 a ounce. Money can be made in metals.
 
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Furry

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USO trading halted pending news. I'm gonna go with this isnt going to be good news for the oil noobs.

When I was looking at oil, I came to the conclusion that oil can do so bad that shorts will lose money. (Usually when you short you end up with an asset in the end, not a liability). Additionally, ETFs, ETNs and financial instruments like USO are especially vulnerable to this, because they won't easily be able to dodge the contract obligations if they were holding contracts that came to term. I don't know the financial particulars of USO, but I could see them dying in a fire of litigation with a total loss for investors.
 

Jysin

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Regarding gold..

322AFD7D-094F-4D85-907A-9EB5CDB552B0.png
 

Furious

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Got sucked into a gold and silver YouTube video last night

Shit is pretty compelling, is it faith in the monetary system that keeps you guys from owning physical metal? Stigma?
I own a bunch of physical gold and silver. I do not think they are great investments though.
 

Flobee

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My pet theory is that once the market drops again (I think we have a second drop coming) we'll see BTC, ETH, etc surge as faith in Fiat starts to crumble. Next 2-4 years will be the rise of crypto as we debase the USD. Unless of course MMT goes into full effect. Not sure I trust that either though.

Governments are full burn trying to blow the public's trust and I think there will be consequences in the medium term. There is a reason everyone is in cash or gold/silver/BTC right now. We all know you cant print trillions with no downstream effects. Who knows though, never seen anything like this.
 

Asshat wormie

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My pet theory is that once the market drops again (I think we have a second drop coming) we'll see BTC, ETH, etc surge as faith in Fiat starts to crumble. Next 2-4 years will be the rise of crypto as we debase the USD. Unless of course MMT goes into full effect. Not sure I trust that either though.

Governments are full burn trying to blow the public's trust and I think there will be consequences in the medium term. There is a reason everyone is in cash or gold/silver/BTC right now. We all know you cant print trillions with no downstream effects. Who knows though, never seen anything like this.
Wut? Bitcoin is down 30% since feb. No one is in btc except suckers.
 
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Flobee

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Wut? Bitcoin is down 30% since feb. No one is in btc except suckers.
Maybe. I'm hedging in on it some because I see massive potential. Less with BTC and more ETH, XRP, LINK. Crypto has massive disruption potential to the financial markets. If you aren't learning more about what is happening in that space you are hamstringing yourself long term imo. I'm sure you're more experience with moving money though so we will see as we move forward.
 

Asshat wormie

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Maybe. I'm hedging in on it some because I see massive potential. Less with BTC and more ETH, XRP, LINK. Crypto has massive disruption potential to the financial markets. If you aren't learning more about what is happening in that space you are hamstringing yourself long term imo. I'm sure you're more experience with moving money though so we will see as we move forward.
Think about what you claimed. You said people will flock to crypto as faith in fiat crumbles. Yet during a massive market drop full of uncertainty and market disruption, the biggest crypto, BTC, is trading at 0 since cost of production is about what the price is now. Hell, during the peak uncertainty BTC sold for 30% below cost of production. Gamble all you want but there is no future in this shit and it is certainly not an investment.
 
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Furry

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I predicted a while ago this coming halfing will take a bite out of BTC value. Long term it is not a good investment.

Cryptos are just a fad with retarded millennial spending dad's money, much like TSLA. It's something you can play short term for the volatility if you like gambling, but as a long term investment it's probably a bad choice.