Kids? or No kids?

Elurin_sl said:

I'm saying the vast majority of people would be much happier if they weren't parents. People are compassionate, so I'm not saying they'd kill their kids. But they're lying to themselves when they say they're so much happier because of their kids.

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You're partially correct. No way I would claim to be happier waking up at 6 on my day off, or cleaning up vomit out of the back of my car, or spending a fortune on tiny clothes they will use for 3 months, etc. But these things are superficial. When people talk about fulfillment, they aren't just talking about happiness. It gives you purpose in live outside yourself. 40 years from now I doubt I'll be looking back and wishing I had gotten drunk more or had more opportunities to go out or something. I'll hopefully look back on my time with my kids as a worthwhile investment, myself as a teacher and role model.

Chaos is absolutely right. Being a role model and a teacher, a guide to life, that is an important and fulfilling endeavor. You may not think so now but I highly doubt that there are childless geriatrics out there saying that they are glad that they never did anything of real importance. Of real importance, yes, that's the reality, what else is the average person going to do that has such a great and deep impact on other human beings? Having a good family for generations to come is the goal of life.

As for you and your wife, you definitely need to discuss this. If she wants to have children and you don't you are going to waste her time and you are never going to make her happy. If you force yourself into having children with your current pussy attitude you are going to have an unhappy family. That's my opinion but I think that it's the truth.

Nostrovia_sl said:

It was discussed before the marriage, she doesn't want kids immediately. We both wanted to get established financially first, which we have.
Before our marriage we agreed that it would be at least 3 years before we attempt having a baby, but I don't think I'll be ready... I don't think I'll ever be ready.
However, she did bring it up the other day in regards to my age. I'm 30 years old and not getting any younger.

It is a topic we discuss from time to time, but it's not a "deal breaker"... I don't think. Yet, anyway.

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So no, you didn't discuss your actual feelings before getting married is what you're saying.

After having kids, I couldn't imagine my life ever feeling complete without them. There is a level of joy that you get as a parent that I don't think can be met any other way.

If kids are not for you, then they are just not. There is nothing wrong with that. If your wife wants them tho, to deny her that.... I honestly could not imagine what that would be like. There will always be a part missing in her life and you guys will probably always have problems because of it.

You need to figure it out fast. It isn't fair to either of you - to have kids you don't want, or to deny her kids she desperately does.

Kids are hard work even when you REALLY want them. If you don't want them, you aren't going to be doing anyone any good by having them. That being said, I wouldn't even consider it until your marrige hits 7-9 years (the time most fall apart), because the only thing you don't want more than having kids you don't want, is having to spend all your money on kids you don't even have and don't want as part of the divorce.

Not to mention the effect on the kids if you don't come around to ever wanting them, which is possible.

Nostrovia_sl said:

However, she did bring it up the other day in regards to my age. I'm 30 years old and not getting any younger.

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To be honest it's something you should consider, the older you and the potential mother get the much higher chances of undesired syndromes and birth defects are.

After age 30/35/40 the risks of everything unpleasant that can happen to your hypothetical child increase drastically.

BrutulTM_sl said:

I don't have kids, but I would like to. I don't think people that don't want kids are shitty people necessarily, but I think to be a decent human being you have to do something that is unselfish with your life and I don't mean volunteering at a soup kitchen for 1 night every 3 years. If you go through life doing nothing but maximizing your own comfort and convenience, then you are a waste of space and IMO will not actually increase your happiness. Doing a good job raising your own children is the easiest way to make a positive impact on the world and it IS a huge sacrifice of your own comfort and convenience but I think most people who actually raise their kids consider it the most important thing that they have done in life and in most cases they are right. On the other hand, if you're not going to do a good job raising your kids, for fuck's sake don't have them.

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This makes absolutely no sense. If you're going to justify having a kid because you're "doing good for society" why not do good for society by your own actions? Why not adopt a kid (there are tons out there) instead of creating one yourself if your main desire is to make a better tomorrow? Why not strive every day to be a good person?

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I see what you were saying. Being a good parent and raising good children goes a long way to making you a good person in general I would say. There isn't much else that can be done by most people that is as beneficial for society and is so completely selfless.

As I said before, I highly doubt that there are many elderly people who are happy that they didn't have any children. It may seem like you want to have more fun now but it's one of those things that you do for the betterment of yourself and for other in this case. It's like going to school, at some point you probably disliked going to school, you knew best and would rather have fun with your friends or doing other things with your time. The same idea applies to having a family. If you are a bit immature you may think that making your wife happy, having a good family, raising, guiding, and helping your children, etc. Are not very important, but I guarantee that if you look back on that time in the future you will see that a family was the way to go.

IMO, having kids seems to be a pretty selfish thing to do. You're basically trying to feel good about having your genes in another person in the world that you can somewhat shape and influence. Then again, it's probably an enjoyable experience in the long run, unless your kid goes rebel-mode in their teenage years.

From the posts so far, none of us have kids that are all grown up (20+), so I'm not sure everyone can comment on the experience of parenting overall. I'm thinking the most enjoyable parenting years are 3-10 or so.

having kids is a selfish thing to do? You're reaching.

Only read the OP.

You either want them or you don't. Something you and your wife should of talked about and hammered out before you got married as I figure it will be a rather big point of contention in your relationship.

Children are an investment. Continuation of you, your beliefs and how you bring them up in the world. From a male stand point there isn't much interesting going on with children for the first couple of years besides the obvious mile stones. Women really enjoy pregnancy and those first years and bond heavily with them and its definitely harder for males. I'm not saying you don't care, don't bond or anything like that its your kid and it is different. Its just a bit more ingrained in woman and as a man I think you need to make more of an effort on average.

That said, a father's role in their son or daughters life is one of the most important bonds. Perhaps more so than the mothers since that tends to be stronger naturally. There are enough kids with fucked up daddy issues that we don't need any more. Whatever you do, love and nurture your children (and your wife! they learn from you and how you treat her), don't be afraid to show them the RIGHT way to act and give them a huge advantage in the world. So many little ass holes in the world today are a result of not having a proper father figure in their lives.

Our role is one of the most important, yet most neglected. So if you aren't willing to work through it (you are never "ready") then don't do it. Just be a man and don't string your girl along for the ride because her "having a baby clock" ticks while yours, relatively, does not. So if you are going to fuck her over on a perfectly natural and normal female desire be sure and let her know early so she can either deal with it or move on.

chaos_sl said:

having kids is a selfish thing to do? You're reaching.

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Preface: I refer to "you," but I'm actually referring to people in general.

Yes, it is. I'm approaching this thread as a general "kids or no kids" thread because ultimately anything we tell the OP isn't going to help his situation - he has to look deep into himself, sit down and sort it out with his wife.

Let's not pretend that having kids is some selfless "give your life to another person" activity. The reason you have kids is you want to perpetuate your ideas / genes / character / etc. /etc. in the world. Despite all the difficulties of raising a kid, this is likely the reason you still feel warm and fuzzy inside. You decided to have a kid to feel good about yourself, and you've learned that happiness and joy come from putting your effort into a person who is uniquely "yours" and partly "you."

Your decision to have a kid won't benefit the world in any way. If people took the time they spent raising their kids and did public service, they'd likely feel more accomplished and actually make a difference for others.

I'm not here to dissuade anyone from having kids. I just don't jive with the idea that having kids is a selfless thing to do. You're essentially forcing another person into the world who has less control over their life than you, and you find it amusing that they say funny and do funny things that demonstrate their ignorance of life and the world. Yes, this is pessimistic, but I find that my best moments with children are looking into their eyes with the knowledge that life is so much different than they envision.

Life ain't anything but easy. Children are a great way of distracting yourself from thinking about the problems of life (or possibly your boring marriage? ). They're basically a guaranteed 15-16 years of an interesting / difficult / eye-opening / fun lifestyle with a man/woman who you love / get along with. Take it for what you will. Kids will provide you with the emotional, mental, and physical stimulation you need to be more lively and perhaps enjoy life more.

It isn't rocket science. I fear for the human race reading your posts.

Either you want kids or you don't, and you do what it takes to support them if you do.