Kids? or No kids?

chaos

chaos

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cosmic_cs_sl said:
Preface: I refer to "you," but I'm actually referring to people in general.

Yes, it is. I'm approaching this thread as a general "kids or no kids" thread because ultimately anything we tell the OP isn't going to help his situation - he has to look deep into himself, sit down and sort it out with his wife.

Let's not pretend that having kids is some selfless "give your life to another person" activity. The reason you have kids is you want to perpetuate your ideas / genes / character / etc. /etc. in the world. Despite all the difficulties of raising a kid, this is likely the reason you still feel warm and fuzzy inside. You decided to have a kid to feel good about yourself, and you've learned that happiness and joy come from putting your effort into a person who is uniquely "yours" and partly "you."

Your decision to have a kid won't benefit the world in any way. If people took the time they spent raising their kids and did public service, they'd likely feel more accomplished and actually make a difference for others.

I'm not here to dissuade anyone from having kids. I just don't jive with the idea that having kids is a selfless thing to do. You're essentially forcing another person into the world who has less control over their life than you, and you find it amusing that they say funny and do funny things that demonstrate their ignorance of life and the world. Yes, this is pessimistic, but I find that my best moments with children are looking into their eyes with the knowledge that life is so much different than they envision.

Life ain't anything but easy. Children are a great way of distracting yourself from thinking about the problems of life (or possibly your boring marriage?
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). They're basically a guaranteed 15-16 years of an interesting / difficult / eye-opening / fun lifestyle with a man/woman who you love / get along with. Take it for what you will. Kids will provide you with the emotional, mental, and physical stimulation you need to be more lively and perhaps enjoy life more.
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I had a really shitty reply typed up taking you to task for being a fucktard, but new board new chaos.

It seems like you are projecting shit onto other people as far as emotions revolving around children are concerned. Because the bottom line is that you can't know someone's motivations any more than you can know evelys has a penis.

Saying that someone deciding to have a child won't benefit the world in any way is just a sad, sad attitude to have. And wrong. If Einstein or Ghandi or whoever's parents had adopted an anal only policy, the world would be a worse place. People accomplish things, they do, and your influence over your children can impact their reach in the world.

I'd never say it is a selfless thing to do, but it isn't selfish either. It just is. This is why we are here. Have kids, don't fuck them up, that is the meaning of life. Your description of looking into a child's eyes as the best moment, that shit is sad. My best moments with my kids are teaching them, or watching them teach me. Or laughing and joking with them, playing, having fun. Not having a sad. You need some wellbutrin or something.

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cosmic_cs_sl

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I'd reply to you, but the whole Einstein / Gandhi example is hyperbole. You can make a big difference yourself, but you'd rather take the easy way out.
 
chaos

chaos

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How is that hyperbole? How am I taking the easy way out? You have no idea what I am doing, just like you have no idea what my motivations were to have kids. You are projecting.
 
Alex

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cosmic_cs_sl said:
I'd reply to you, but the whole Einstein / Gandhi example is hyperbole. You can make a big difference yourself, but you'd rather take the easy way out.
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I don't have kids and don't foresee myself having any for a quite some time. In fact, I think having kids is a pretty big mistake in general, but your point of view is messed up.
 
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cosmic_cs_sl

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Do you agree with me that having kids means you'd be stuck in your own family bubble for quite some years (unless you're financially secure and can afford people to look after your kids)?

Do you agree that people can make a big difference in their community without being Einstein or Gandhi?

Do you agree that a lot of people have kids because they're "fun," "cute," "rewarding," etc. so on? Look at the real reason people have kids. Kids are a great way to spend your time with your wife/husband. Like I said, they keep you occupied (by occupied, I mean stimulated) emotionally, mentally, and physically. They provide great motivation for you to work harder at work so you can support them. They may even provide a reason to live / keep your marriage alive. Maybe you didn't know / expect this before you had kids, so I'm not questioning anyone's motivation.

I guess I just have a stick up my ass from Charles saying having kids is "so completely selfless," which is something I don't agree with.

I'm thinking devoting 3 months of your time to developing your speaking / social / motivational skills and then volunteering to teach elementary school kids for a few hours a week would be more beneficial than raising 2 of your own kids to adulthood, lol.
 
BrutulTM

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I think that you could make a pretty good case that the decision to have a child is selfish, or at least most people are not doing it to make the world a better place, but if you want to be a good parent, that's where the selfishness has to end. If you're putting an educated, healthy, well-adjusted human being out into the world 20 years later, you have made the world a better place IMO. It helps offset the people like the parents of some foster kids that I am acquainted with who left their kids in a room for several years and now they are 3 and 4 years old and can't talk and aren't potty trained and despite the best efforts of their foster parents will probably wind up on drugs and in jail 15 years from now.

If we could get people who aren't capable of raising children to stop having them, and people that have children to do a good job of raising them, we would solve about 90% of the world's problems.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Hey guys, this is the grown up forum, act like grown ups and stop being assholes. You can shit on each other everywhere else on the board.
 
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cosmic_cs_sl

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BrutulTM_sl said:
I think that you could make a pretty good case that the decision to have a child is selfish, or at least most people are not doing it to make the world a better place, but if you want to be a good parent, that's where the selfishness has to end. If you're putting an educated, healthy, well-adjusted human being out into the world 20 years later, you have made the world a better place IMO. It helps offset the people like the parents of some foster kids that I am acquainted with who left their kids in a room for several years and now they are 3 and 4 years old and can't talk and aren't potty trained and despite the best efforts of their foster parents will probably wind up on drugs and in jail 15 years from now.

If we could get people who aren't capable of raising children to stop having them, and people that have children to do a good job of raising them, we would solve about 90% of the world's problems.
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The thing with raising kids is that you can do everything "right" (or do everything you can but pay less attention for a year or two because your life gets rough) and still have them go batshit insane in their teen or college years. That's why I said that you have more control over your life - why not start there and improve society with your own actions rather than hoping your kid will turn out to be some great person.
 
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Cheap Cigar_sl

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Draegan_sl said:
Hey guys, this is the grown up forum, act like grown ups and stop being assholes. You can shit on each other everywhere else on the board.
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If that was meant for me I wasn't trying to be an asshole. The photo, although funny, is also sad. If you tell your wife that you want children, or just give in and really don't she will see that sooner or later and it will hurt. It's a huge decision and should be discussed with complete honesty now.
 
chaos

chaos

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BrutulTM_sl said:
I think that you could make a pretty good case that the decision to have a child is selfish, or at least most people are not doing it to make the world a better place, but if you want to be a good parent, that's where the selfishness has to end.
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There is a whole spectrum of humanity between the two. If someone told me they were having kids to make the world a better place, I'd think they are retarded. If you have a kid at 16 just because you want something to love you unconditionally, yeah you're a moron and that would be selfishness. But between the two is the majority of people, and I don't think they have selfish reasons for the most part, really I don't even see how you get there.
 
BrutulTM

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I know people that have told me they had kids because they wanted someone to take care of them in their old age. What would you say is an unselfish reason for having a kid?
 
Eomer

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One point that you never hear raised, and that is almost impossible to argue with, is that if you're legitimately concerned about the environment the single best thing you can do for it is to not reproduce.
 
Vithe

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I'm a father and I still can't stand kids. I absolutely love being a father and I love my son to death though. I wouldn't change it for anything.

I think the issue I have with kids the majority of the time is the parents though. Letting their kid run around a store knocking everything on the shelf down, etc...

I don't know if this helps you at all, but I can't stand kids, but I love being a father, and I love my son more then anything.
 
BrutulTM

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Eomer_sl said:
One point that you never hear raised, and that is almost impossible to argue with, is that if you're legitimately concerned about the environment the single best thing you can do for it is to not reproduce.
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This is true in a way, but it's simplistic. It sort of depends on your situation in life. Generally the more educated someone is, the less kids they have. Those of us that are in our 30s and have no kids because we were busy going to college and having a career are not causing the global population growth. On the contrary, white people's population is declining almost everywhere in the world and not just as a percentage. The poorer the country is, the faster its population is growing. Kids being born in a Bario or a rice paddy or a trailer park are not likely to grow up to be climate scientists. Meanwhile, the rich guy with the PHD is deciding not to have kids. The world is still getting overpopulated, but that dude's kid would have been far more likely to go to Stanford and invent cold fusion if his father had not decided not to have kids for the good of the planet. It's the whole Idiocracy idea.

Personally, I only give a shit about the environment as a place for humans to live. There are those that think there would be something noble if the human race allowed itself to die out to improve things for the trees and insects and shit, but I don't care about that. Some rare salamander doesn't give a shit if its race dies out.
 
Eomer

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None of what you posted takes in to account that a child born in a developed country is likely to consume an order of magnitude more resources in their lifetime than one born in a poor or developing country, nor that there's about a 99.9999% chance that said child will never have any measurable impact on technology or anything else other than simply consuming resources.

If you don't care about the environment, then that's fine. It's a moot point to you then. But if you do, having a child is by far the most environmentally damaging act you can commit unless you're one of the Koch brothers or something.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Cheap Cigar_sl said:
If that was meant for me I wasn't trying to be an asshole. The photo, although funny, is also sad. If you tell your wife that you want children, or just give in and really don't she will see that sooner or later and it will hurt. It's a huge decision and should be discussed with complete honesty now.
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It was a general warning.
 
Deathwing

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Vithe_sl said:
I'm a father and I still can't stand kids. I absolutely love being a father and I love my son to death though. I wouldn't change it for anything.

I think the issue I have with kids the majority of the time is the parents though. Letting their kid run around a store knocking everything on the shelf down, etc...

I don't know if this helps you at all, but I can't stand kids, but I love being a father, and I love my son more then anything.
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No offense, but as someone who is still kinda sorta on the fence about kids, I hate this response. Basically, I gotta go into it with some amount of faith, hoping that my reaction to my theoretical kid would be different than my reaction to others.

People (rightly)ridicule others that don't have sex before getting married. I feel this is similar but much more important. But how do you test the water for something like this? Can't break up with a kid if you end up not liking it! Well, you can, but I'm nowhere near that much of an asshole. Can you do a trial run in foster care? Would that even be a comparable situation?
 
BrutulTM

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Eomer_sl said:
there's about a 99.9999% chance that said child will never have any measurable impact on technology or anything else other than simply consuming resources.
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It's 100% true that one person deciding not to have a kid will not have any measurable impact on the environment on a global scale. It's not about one person, it's about a global trend.

Eomer_sl said:
If you don't care about the environment, then that's fine. It's a moot point to you then.
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That's not what I said. I do care about the environment because we have to live here, just not for the sake of various the various non-human plants and critters.
 
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