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LadyVex_sl

shitlord
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Did several matches tonight playing Xin with drtyrm as either Leona or another support with double relics. That shit should be illegal. Few matches where I didn't die once. Admittedly it's not ranked but wow. Our first game the rest of the team realized we were the threat and we regularly had 4 in our lane, but then our other lane pushed sooo...

Yea, that shit is really good.
 
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Draegan_sl

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I haven't been able to play all week so I can't wait to get on tonight. What are some lane duos people are seeing that are different?
 
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The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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Arbitrary_sl said:
The joke with Relic Shield is that the other two support items are crazy good. The second it gets nerfed League of Nomad's Medallion will begin. And then after that all the mages going bot can build Frostfang.
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Yeah, I ran the coin w/ Morgana and completely shut down a Relic Shield lane. The relic shield is broken, but it's not as broken as people think if they know it's coming.
 
ronne

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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Taric + bruiser (darius, panth, j4 etc) is super strong in bot lane while not being quite as gimmicky/risky as the duo bruisers. Taric heal and relic sustain makes it pretty legit, and taric stun + cc from someone else makes for a hell of an all-in.
 
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Draegan_sl

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I kind of think that a Duo Mid might be better than top just for roaming purposes and dragon control. Might be able to apply Jungle pressure even more if the opponent has a jungler.
 
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Tortfeasor

Molten Core Raider
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Carry junglers are strong. So much money. Need to get some in some more Hecarim games. Also, Yasuo looks like Aatrox with more cc and damage that can hard counter lots of ranged champs. So, there's that.
 
kaid

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
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So I figured I would give support heimerdinger a try last night. It worked very well I was quite pleased. I think they may wind up toning down the cash supply for supports a bit because with a third the creep score I had more gold than the solo mid lanner did and I really was not having to utilize much other than buying a pink now and then. It is so nice that the sight stone pretty much covers your major warding needs. Heimer is not a good lane farming support but if you want to push the hell out of the bottom and bully their ADC until they weep in a corner it seemed to work very well.
 
kaid

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Arbitrary_sl said:
I lost a whole mess today but it was all kinds of fun. I hope things stay as they are for at least a few weeks before Riot starts monkeyhammering things back in to place.

The joke with Relic Shield is that the other two support items are crazy good. The second it gets nerfed League of Nomad's Medallion will begin. And then after that all the mages going bot can build Frostfang.

I'm booked solid for at least 3 months.
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I went frostfang both games I played last night as heimer support and that seemed pretty crazy good as well. I was torn between that and the nomad stone but since I knew I wanted to try the new banner of command I figured I would get my CDR elsewhere. All the new support items seem pretty damn good and given how agressive I am with heimer the pick pocket stuff from frost fang added up very fast. One game I wound up with more money than the mid laner who was solo and second game I was like 100gp less than them so the support gold supply seems quite good right now. I think all the support stuff is going to get nerfed like the heart of gold because they are simply far to attractive for non supports.
 
Amzin

Amzin

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Heavy presence junglers seem nerfed overall, their ganks start later and unless you farm jungle like a madman you'd get more gold doing the 1-2-2 or whatever comp. Farming junglers on the other hand can make bank now so that's new.

The bitching about Relic makes me laugh because it's way less gold than Frost and almost exactly the same gp/10 (0.2 more in best case) than Coin. People crying about how could Riot let this OP stuff through testing when they have no idea about how everything actually adds up is entertaining. The sustain on Relic is the problem, if anything, and it's really hard for me to say 4% of your max health a minute is OP. That's just... not very much. But any sustain is OP early I guess.
 
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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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I just hope that they don't nerf them too much. I like the idea of new strats and a new metas. I think in pro play that if you have the possibility of different comps going against each other, it would be fun as hell to watch. Just like football, what is the other team going to come at you with? Are they running 2-1-2? Or 1-1-2-J? How do you counter at champ select? How can you predict? I love it.

So I hope it shakes out that makes different starts viable. Unfortunately Riot will probably just try to kill it.
 
Amzin

Amzin

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It basically adds some of that comp versatility that dota has into League, it's great. People just need to chill the fuck out and have fun for a couple weeks.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Amzin_sl said:
Heavy presence junglers seem nerfed overall, their ganks start later and unless you farm jungle like a madman you'd get more gold doing the 1-2-2 or whatever comp. Farming junglers on the other hand can make bank now so that's new.

The bitching about Relic makes me laugh because it's way less gold than Frost and almost exactly the same gp/10 (0.2 more in best case) than Coin. People crying about how could Riot let this OP stuff through testing when they have no idea about how everything actually adds up is entertaining. The sustain on Relic is the problem, if anything, and it's really hard for me to say 4% of your max health a minute is OP. That's just... not very much. But any sustain is OP early I guess.
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From Reddit:

I did some math to compare new gold items:
First the minion wave basics
* 1 siege minion every 3 waves * Waves spawn every 30 seconds * 1:30 is first wave
Let's take some random 10 minutes during the game after first minion spawn. That means 20 waves and 6 siege minion waves:
Relic Shield
20 waves 6 siege minion waves
14 * 21 gold (melee minions) : 294
6 * 41 gold (siege minions ) : 246
20 * 5 gold (extra gold) : 100
Gives 640 gold in 10 minutes
Targon's Brace (Relic's Shield upgrade)
Gives +5 bonus gold each proc so +100 gold: 740 gold total
Spellthief's Edge
+2 gold per 10 /600 sec/ 120
4 gold for poke each 10 (60 attacks) / 240
360 Gold (if you can poke enemy once every 10 second which is impossible) Let's say you attacked 20 times : 120+80 = 200 gold
Frostfang
+4 Gold per 10 / 240
+8 gold per 10 poke (60 attacks) / 480
720 gold (if you can poke enemy once every 10 second which is impossible) Let's say you attacked 20 times : 240+160 = 400 gold
Ancient Coin
20 * 6 + 6 = 126 minions +2 gold for being near dying minions / 252 gold
Nomad's Medallion
+2 gold per 10 /120
+4 gold for dying minions 126 / 504 = 624 gold
As you can see even if they fix multiple Relic's Shield issue, it is still the best gold item by far (most gold income/lane sustain/extra hp). Also unlike other gold items even if you miss a wave you can use 2 charges next wave so you might be able to get the most possible gold easily.
Minion kill gold item owner is getting should also be nerfed to make other gold items viable for supports.
permalinkreportgive goldreply

[-]Xelnath[Xelnath] (NA) 5 points 2 hours ago
This doesn't factor in that Frostfang triggers off both spells and auto attacks. The others look accurate though.
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Does Frost really give you that much more gold?
 
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Draegan_sl

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Can you cast the Face of the Mountain shield on yourself? I would like to see someone Face shield a Sion and have a double splosion shield.
 
Amzin

Amzin

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The numbers I read fromthis articleon cloth5. The estimates from Frost in your quote are kinda low, considering that the 8 gold cooldown is PER enemy, so one AE spell in lane = 2 procs = 16 gold. And right now attacks and spells are on separate cooldowns as well (which may or may not be a bug), meaning a single trade in bot lane can easily get you 3-4 procs. Under ideal (or even decent) conditions, Frost is nearly double OR MORE of the other two items. But it's way more spikey obviously. Relic has the lowest "max" gp/10 but also the most reliable since you have 60-120 seconds to use your stacks so idle time doesn't really hurt you, where idle time hurts Frost a lot. Talisman in a duo lane has basically a set gp/10, but you can get extra moving from lane to lane too and helping clear jungle camps, but it's not gonna help much.

Edit: yea that Reddit guys' numbers are off in at least a couple places. Targon's Brace/Face of the Mountain are minion + 10 gold, not +5. Frostfang is gonna give you more than 20 procs over a few minutes in lane. The gold advantage of Relic line is a little more complicated because it's going to a different person. You're effectively creating 25-30 gold every 30 seconds to give to someone else, not get yourself. That's why double Relic works fairly well.

Edit 2: Relic is also the only one of the new gold items that can be used by the character farming. The other two crap out if you actually kill minions.
 
kaid

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Playing very agressively last night I found the frostfang to generate a more than sufficient level of gold I was really pleased by it. Relic looks to be more or at least more consistent but the frostfang seems more than adequate to a support lanes needs and a bit better for offensive punch if you are playing a more AP oriented champ like heimer/lux/annie.
 
Amzin

Amzin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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lol nevermind, Targon's wins. If you kill more than one minion at a time with a stack up, if gives gold for all those minions. AoE double lane comps goooo.

Draegan: It probably counts as a spell hit although who knows. Right now Teemo autoattacking someone with his poison gives him 16 gold and his poison doesn't count as a spell for any other interaction in the game as far as I know
 
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