Libertarianism - the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Asshat wormie

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Half of Ron paul's policies are an anathema to liberals, the other half to conservatives. I have no idea how he planned to get anything accomplished.

Lets take the most popular plank he had: abolishing Federal Reserve. I asked a few times already and no one can tell me how RP would have actually made this happen, only that he would.
Having read "End the Fed" I suspect his plan is to bore the Federal Reserve to death. You would think a book about ending the fed would actually have some details about how to go about getting it done. Granted I managed to read only 3/4s of the book so maybe the plan comes out at the end but I doubt it.
 

Phazael

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Half of Ron paul's policies are an anathema to liberals, the other half to conservatives. I have no idea how he planned to get anything accomplished.

Lets take the most popular plank he had: abolishing Federal Reserve. I asked a few times already and no one can tell me how RP would have actually made this happen, only that he would.
And the only reason the Paul's are Republicans is that the standards for intellectual honesty are a lot lower, so it was an easier party to try and coopt. That and their hatred of minorities, gays, and women, which makes no sense if you take Libertarian philosphy seriously at face value. If the liberal base was mostly as moronic as the GOP base (think all hipster douche OWS people), they could have easily been Dems this entire time.
 

Loser Araysar

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I would love to hear Lithose's take on the Federal Reserve.
 

Tanoomba

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What evidence is there that Ron Paul WOULD HAVE drastically improved ANYTHING?
None. I can't believe, it absolutely blows my mind that I have to keep repeating this, as there are only so many combinations of words that can be used to get the same idea across: The only guarantee, the ONLY one, is thatthe current system fucking sucks and is getting worse by the day. That's a fucking given, and that's the one pointeverybody seems to be able to agree on. You agree too, for fuck's sake, but it doesn't matter to you because you feel secure that your lifestyle in not in immediate danger, and that's fine! More power to you, bro. As for me, I see no alternative but to take action because I CAN NOT accept the way things are now. I will not play games with the lives of myself and my brothers in the human race by sticking with a system that's already actively and intentionally fucking us over. Ron Paul's solution was the most feasible way that I've seen to disassemble the status quo from the inside out by actually following rules that exist within the system. Isn't that why we have democracy? So we don't have to get stuck with broken systems? So we can change things when they get out of hand? Again,AGAIN: Show me an alternative and Ron Paul can suck my dick.

Change is not necessarily improvement. You're talking about lifeboats and sinking ships and whatever, and that is just ludicrous. Our country has a lot of problems, but sinking ship? Give me a break with that.
I agree that change is not necessarily an improvement, but from my point of view CHANGE IS THE ONLY FUCKING CHANCE WE HAVE. And I'm actually pretty fucking proud of my sinking ship analogy. I think it deserves a fucking gold medal in the Analogylympics, thank you very much. You tell me how that analogy is anything less than completely apt. Apt I tell you!APT!
 

Asshat wormie

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None. I can't believe, it absolutely blows my mind that I have to keep repeating this, as there are only so many combinations of words that can be used to get the same idea across: The only guarantee, the ONLY one, is thatthe current system fucking sucks and is getting worse by the day. That's a fucking given, and that's the one pointeverybody seems to be able to agree on. You agree too, for fuck's sake, but it doesn't matter to you because you feel secure that your lifestyle in not in immediate danger, and that's fine! More power to you, bro. As for me, I see no alternative but to take action because I CAN NOT accept the way things are now. I will not play games with the lives of myself and my brothers in the human race by sticking with a system that's already actively and intentionally fucking us over. Ron Paul's solution was the most feasible way that I've seen to disassemble the status quo from the inside out by actually following rules that exist within the system. Isn't that why we have democracy? So we don't have to get stuck with broken systems? So we can change things when they get out of hand? Again,AGAIN: Show me an alternative and Ron Paul can suck my dick.



I agree that change is not necessarily an improvement, but from my point of view CHANGE IS THE ONLY FUCKING CHANCE WE HAVE. And I'm actually pretty fucking proud of my sinking ship analogy. I think it deserves a fucking gold medal in the Analogylympics, thank you very much. You tell me how that analogy is anything less than completely apt. Apt I tell you!APT!
I would like to vote for Dog the President because he is different and that will fix everything. I prefer a smaller breed like a daschund so the shits are smaller and easier to clean up. CHANGE!!111

What is wrong with you? Its the fucking President of the United States. You dont just vote for some shit bag because he is something different.
 

Phazael

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There were a lot of people who hated Romney and everything he stood for, religiously, economically, and morally, who did it just because they wanted the darkie out of the Whitehouse.....
 

kaid

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I like states rights on social issues but I'm pretty fed up with states' rights on a lot of bureaucracy. Health care providers being divided by state lines, different motor vehicle depts, a whole host of different laws that depend on the state etc I think are antiquated.
The main reason the health care system works like this right now is after seeing what happened to the credit card companies when they lifted the state by state rulings everybody is afraid of the massive race to the bottom that would happen if they were not limited by the state lines.

With credit cards once they opened state line limitations one state decided to have the most lax most screw the customer laws possible and wound up with every credit card company now magically has a "headquarters" in that state. And by "headquarters" I mean a PO box that is never used for anything.
 

chaos

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None. I can't believe, it absolutely blows my mind that I have to keep repeating this, as there are only so many combinations of words that can be used to get the same idea across: The only guarantee, the ONLY one, is thatthe current system fucking sucks and is getting worse by the day. That's a fucking given, and that's the one pointeverybody seems to be able to agree on. You agree too, for fuck's sake, but it doesn't matter to you because you feel secure that your lifestyle in not in immediate danger, and that's fine! More power to you, bro. As for me, I see no alternative but to take action because I CAN NOT accept the way things are now. I will not play games with the lives of myself and my brothers in the human race by sticking with a system that's already actively and intentionally fucking us over. Ron Paul's solution was the most feasible way that I've seen to disassemble the status quo from the inside out by actually following rules that exist within the system. Isn't that why we have democracy? So we don't have to get stuck with broken systems? So we can change things when they get out of hand? Again,AGAIN: Show me an alternative and Ron Paul can suck my dick.



I agree that change is not necessarily an improvement, but from my point of view CHANGE IS THE ONLY FUCKING CHANCE WE HAVE. And I'm actually pretty fucking proud of my sinking ship analogy. I think it deserves a fucking gold medal in the Analogylympics, thank you very much. You tell me how that analogy is anything less than completely apt. Apt I tell you!APT!
You keep repeating stuff like "show me an alternative" when there IS an alternative in place, right now. You are making the implication that Ron Paul would be better than the current power, whether you mean to or not.

Change itself is not a positive thing. Yes, I'd rather ride out the status quo with my comfortable life and my amenities than I would risk Thunderdome with Uncle Ron at the helm of the SS Libertarian Experiment. The ship isn't sinking, we just aren't invited to the fancy ball with Kate and Jack. Sucks to be us, and yeah it isn't right, but it sure beats the hell out of cutting holes in the hull.
 

Tanoomba

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I would like to vote for Dog the President because he is different and that will fix everything. I prefer a smaller breed like a daschund so the shits are smaller and easier to clean up. CHANGE!!111

What is wrong with you? Its the fucking President of the United States. You dont just vote for some shit bag because he is something different.
Nope, you stick with your system, however terrible and guaranteed to get worse it is (sinking ship, anyone?), because you still have your XBox.

By the way, every presidential candidate since presidency was established promised to fix everything the last guy did wrong. I happened to like Ron Paul, not just because he is different but because he was honest and principled (I know some of you see those as negative traits but I happen to respect that in people) and actually had the balls to challenge the way things had been done up to that point. The idea of pulling the American military out of where it didn't belong wasn't even up for discussion for anyone else, and that's a pretty big deal for me. His respect for the constitution impressed me too, unlike everyone else who will gladly wipe their shit-stained assholes with it in order to tighten the stranglehold on anyone who isn't in the 1%. Dog, on the other hand, had some great ideas regarding progressive taxation, but his ideas about health care seemed way too backwards for me to consider him a viable choice.

Again (AGAIN), I'm not saying Ron Paul's presidency wouldn't have come without a host of new problems to solve, but I'll gladly take the problems created by an honest but naive man who legit wants to fix things than those created by a clever but corrupt asshole who wants to fuck me over. Apparently I'm in the minority here.
 

Tanoomba

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You keep repeating stuff like "show me an alternative" when there IS an alternative in place, right now. You are making the implication that Ron Paul would be better than the current power, whether you mean to or not.
Maybe I missed something... what's the alternative?
I'm sorry if you think I was making an implication. Here, let me be more explicit:
I believe Ron Paul would be better than the current power.

Change itself is not a positive thing. Yes, I'd rather ride out the status quo with my comfortable life and my amenities than I would risk Thunderdome with Uncle Ron at the helm of the SS Libertarian Experiment. The ship isn't sinking, we just aren't invited to the fancy ball with Kate and Jack. Sucks to be us, and yeah it isn't right, but it sure beats the hell out of cutting holes in the hull.
Do you know why the first several lifeboats on the Titanic were sent out less than half full? It wasn't because people weren't being allowed on, it's because people refused to believe there was any danger. They were standing on a huge, secure, luxurious ship they had been promised was "unsinkable". Even after the ship started to slant a few degrees, why would they get into tiny little boats and drift across frigid waters when they were on a huge ship built with redundant safety features, whose lights were still operating, while musicians were playing jaunty tunes and boys were playing soccer with chunks of ice? Any of this sound familiar?

Holy shit, I should be nominated for outstanding achievement in the field of analogy for this one.
 

Loser Araysar

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His fixation on Xbox is getting disturbing. Has he not heard of the PS3?
 

chaos

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I believe Ron Paul would be better than the current power.
And I believe that you are tragically wrong. You're so proud of your analogy, but the truth is we aren't sinking. Things just aren't ideal. In some cases so far from it that even using that terminology seems retarded. But still, here we are. It is a hard thing to ask others to take risks for your beliefs. The older I get, the more risk-averse I become. The status quo leads me to a comfortable retirement and my kids to college and potential success, which is more than anyone in my family had before this generation. Nothing I have heard from Ron Paul or any libertarian has reassured me about a possible future under their leadership.
 

Lithose

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I would love to hear Lithose's take on the Federal Reserve.
What people don't get when they look at our monetary system is that money doesn't get dispersed "like magic". There is a lot of work that goes into creating money and making sure it goes to people who will it to actual make things (When things work well, this is what should happen). You can't simply say "the the fed is superfluous GARBABABLE!!!!" like most people do...The reality is, in a proper reserve system, the Fed's function as an actuarial and distribution body is absolutely needed (Again, it's a lot of work...However, right now, the problem is the people with access to the Fed, the big 5 or 6 commercials in the U.S., are way too concentrated. Combine this way them being able to use typical commercial powers (access to assets, reserve, leveraging), and you have a set of entities which can compromise a market, in a very small, incestuous little circle that leads to corruption and allows for control over what should be a "public good".

With that in mind, the Fed is a needed construct in thecurrentmarket--touching it now would be akin to shutting down the reactor in the Ghost Busters. Until we localize lending, get investment banking off the mint's tit and return the commercial industries leveraging power back to only being able to create wealth through tangible growth (Rather than through speculation)--I would not touch the Fed, not with a mile long pole. Just asking for disaster. (And that's assuming it was done carefully.)

However, if we could do the above? Well, I still wouldn't get rid of the Fed, because a lot of the issues with it would be fixed. Without the big financials abusing the system, the Fed would function as it's supposed to--which is to say, the first relay between the Mint and the Market. Which is a needed service and is handled well by a quasi-private entity that should be half private (For some profit motivation, to keep things efficient) and public (Because, the reality is, the Fed's ability to generate profits is due to it's government granted monopoly over money supply)--In order to ensure this, I'd increase oversight, make audits mandatory and a few other things--but like I said, it's a complicated institution with being that line between public and private and I think it fills the role "okay"--the problem isn't really the Fed, it's the big banks which now monopolize access thanks to their size (And this is the most complicated aspect of the issue--and really where government needs to control things. The Fed should handle the money, government should handle access, private/public.)

Of course this would all give Paul supporters heart attacks--because somehow they think a "Gold Standard" is less arbitrary than a productivity one, which we have now. As if gold had some higher meaning than a new machine or job (Which I think is dumb, I think gold is far more arbitrary and "fake" in terms of value than a farm that will feed people). I personally think the reserve system is an excellent solution for an ever expanding market....The problem comes from greed at it's center and the collection of power there and the ability to profit without performing a useful service (Well, preventing financial ruin is useful but it only performs that role because it causes the catastrophes indirectly.). THAT is what I would correct....Which as said, would entail abolishing market corrupting super-forces like the big financials (Such as JPM ect), not the Fed.
 
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I like states rights on social issues but I'm pretty fed up with states' rights on a lot of bureaucracy. Health care providers being divided by state lines, different motor vehicle depts, a whole host of different laws that depend on the state etc I think are antiquated.
Michigan's Emergency Management law is a fucking embarrassment to the constitution. They're going to put that next to Korematsu, Plessy, Bush v. Gore, Citizens United, the Connecticut ED case whose name I cant remember and the McCarthy freedom of speech cases in the section of con law text books which has the worst decisions (Supreme or not) of all fucking time.
 

Tanoomba

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His fixation on Xbox is getting disturbing. Has he not heard of the PS3?
Actually, I'm a PS3 guy myself. I just figured the XBox is more emblematic of Americosity in general.

And I believe that you are tragically wrong. You're so proud of your analogy, but the truth is we aren't sinking. Things just aren't ideal. In some cases so far from it that even using that terminology seems retarded. But still, here we are. It is a hard thing to ask others to take risks for your beliefs. The older I get, the more risk-averse I become. The status quo leads me to a comfortable retirement and my kids to college and potential success, which is more than anyone in my family had before this generation. Nothing I have heard from Ron Paul or any libertarian has reassured me about a possible future under their leadership.
I believe I've addressed this several times already, but here we go again: The many, many families who have been pushed below the poverty line would likely wholeheartedly agree with my analogy, as their third class cabins are rapidly flooding with water. You still only see a slant of a couple of degrees and you haven't been affected yet and may not be for a while, so from your point of view everything's fine and you should "stay the course". I'm not asking you to take risks, you'realreadytaking risks. You just don't realize it because the consequences are being felt by people you don't give a shit about. For now, at least.
 

Asshat wormie

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Actually, I'm a PS3 guy myself. I just figured the XBox is more emblematic of Americosity in general.



I believe I've addressed this several times already, but here we go again: The many, many families who have been pushed below the poverty line would likely wholeheartedly agree with my analogy, as their third class cabins are rapidly flooding with water. You still only see a slant of a couple of degrees and you haven't been affected yet and may not be for a while, so from your point of view everything's fine and you should "stay the course". I'm not asking you to take risks, you'realreadytaking risks. You just don't realize it because the consequences are being felt by people you don't give a shit about. For now, at least.
Things are fucked but ron paul is not a solution. In fact his ideas would make things a lot worse than anything that obama or rmney proposed.
 

Loser Araysar

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If you like Ron Paul so much, why dont you get him elected in your own country?