Libertarianism - the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Tanoomba

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Bro, get this: I believe your "solution" is bullshit. This is not a binary situation, it isn't Ron Paul or "just hope the situation fixes itself." I choose Not Ron Paul. Because his ideas are bad and he should feel bad.
"I'm not getting into that lifeboat!"
"Dude, the ship is sinking."
"That lifeboat is tiny, has no supplies and we wouldn't last 2 days in that thing."
"Dude, we're sinking! If you stay on the ship you will drown!"
"Fuck you! This isn't a binary situation! I choose Not Lifeboat!"

Now, for the sake of argument and in the hopes of potentially ending this perpetual going around in circles, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say Ron Paul would have fucked everything up even worse than it is now. In other words, you're absolutely right, the lifeboats are shit and setting foot in one is tantamount to setting a 2-day cap on the rest of your life. Does it make you happy to know you dodged a bullet while your ship continues to sink? As the water surrounds your ankles, your knees, your waist, your shoulders, your neck... do you feel a satisfaction in knowing that you were right about the lifeboats?

I don't care if you agree with me about Ron Paul or not. It so doesn't matter it's not even funny. It's the mootest moot point in Mootville.

I agree that this is not a binary situation, incidentally. However, my choice is "not this bullshit fucked up system". Unfortunately, that currently doesn't leave me very many options, so forgive me for considering the unconventional.

Can we say that all the points have been made yet? You think I'm nuts for considering Ron Paul as a possible solution. I think you're nuts for considering not dramatically changing your system a solution. That's it. That's all there is to it. Haven't enough jimmies been rustled?
 

chaos

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Again, your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be :

Dude, we're sinking! Quick, tie this cinderblock around your neck!

You are again acting as if Ron Paul hasn't been considered. He has been, he was found lacking. Severely so. No one here is "not considering dramatically changing our system" as a solution. We're doing the opposite. We considered it, and this particular change is not the answer. To me, to this board, to America. You act as if Ron Paul wasn't vetted and considered. He was, he was found wanting. People don't want him or his ideas. NEDM, bro.
 

Tanoomba

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a) No, but policies that are theoppositeof solutions are worse than policies that just aren't thebestsolutions, e.g. Obamacare vs. Ron Paul's Mad Max vision for America.
b) Why? Government inherently restricts individual "rights." Are you pro-anarchy? I doubt it, and if you're not, there are obviously some "rights" you're perfectly happy to give up. Any of the "rights" I've lost during my lifetime amount to very minor annoyances at worst. Slippery slope!1!1 blah blah blah... I don't care. I can prioritize the things I care about when it comes to politics.
c) I can make a cost/benefit analysis, and he would've gone too far. The few potential upsides of Ron Paul's policies in regards to foreign policy do not makeup for the many downsides of the rest of his policies. Obama might not go far enough for you, but for me he's a gigantic improvement over Bush in regards to foreign policy.
a) So you're a "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't" guy. I'm a "to continue the same approach and expect a different result is the definition of insanity" guy. Just two ways of looking at the same situation.
b) I'm not pro-anarchy, and I'm not perfectly happy to give up any rights. Every right we have we have for a reason. People fought and died to earn us those rights and I'm not about to let some asshole who works for the 1% decide to take them away for my "protection" (this applies in Canada too). Well, not without bitching about it online, at least.
c) Well, shit, a sock puppet caught in a wind chime would have been a gigantic improvement over Bush in regards to foreign policy. I'm still very much not OK with drone strikes, though.
 

Selix

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I'm still very much not OK with drone strikes, though.
TheReality based alternativeto drone strikes was sending more troops overseas but I prefer to use drones as I am sure you would.

Maybe one day we will live in the kind of world where the ideal solution is always possible but the historical ideal solution scoreboard says I'd have better luck playing the lottery.
 

Tanoomba

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Again, your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be :

Dude, we're sinking! Quick, tie this cinderblock around your neck!

You are again acting as if Ron Paul hasn't been considered. He has been, he was found lacking. Severely so. No one here is "not considering dramatically changing our system" as a solution. We're doing the opposite. We considered it, and this particular change is not the answer. To me, to this board, to America. You act as if Ron Paul wasn't vetted and considered. He was, he was found wanting. People don't want him or his ideas. NEDM, bro.
All right, man. I'll change my analogy: Ron Paul is the cinder block. You correctly refuse to tie the cinder block around your neck, and this decision prevents you from being pulled to the bottom of the ocean. Congratulations. Do you feel better now as the water surrounds your ankles, your knees, your waist, your shoulders, your neck...?

This is it. The crux of my argument. I don't give a shit about Ron Paul. I'm not "pro Ron Paul", I'm just "anti this shit". So yeah, maybe my desperation to get off the sinking ship has me putting too much faith in unproven ideas. But we're on a sinking ship, and all everyone seems to be able to do is yell at the one guy who's trying to think outside the box. Maybe his ideas aren't great. Maybe his ideas are terrible. Maybe his ideas are fucking stupid, even. However, I still commend him for being the one person trying to fix these problems we all agree are very real, while everyone else is just laughing and making things worse.

He got tremendous support from the military. He got young people into politics like they've never been before. He got people around the world thinking about how American politics could change for the better. Even if you think he would have been a disaster, there was something there that captured the hearts and spirits of many, many people. Can't we take anything from that? I'll accept your statement that Ron Paul was considered and found wanting. Can't we analyze why he earned such fervent support from so many and demand to see more ofthatfrom the people who are supposed to represent us? Otherwise, all you're telling me is that we're fucked. The ship is still sinking, except now that the idiot with the cinder blocks has been thrown overboard, we're all just sitting around twiddling our thumbs nervously as the water continues to rise.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be manipulated and exploited? Why are we letting greed decide the limits of what we can accomplish as a species? You could consider these rhetorical questions or ideological daydreaming or whatever, but the fact that we all have some pretty great freedoms (despite the ones being slowly taken away) and we live in a democracy where we're all supposed to have a voice means that if we're not able to put our voices together to fix these problems, it's because we assume that everyone is dumber than us and doesn't understand what's going on. Thanks to a manipulative and irresponsible media and the simple distractions of pop music, video games and alcohol it's easy to assume most people are completely out of the loop, but I can't help but feel this is taking the easy way out. One thing I've learned in my years trying to get a good understanding of things around me is that I'm not special. Anything I learn has been learned by millions, anything I feel has been felt my millions. There can't be not enough intelligent people in North America to fix this shit. You can show me all the Honey Boo-Boo, McDonald's fights and moronic Tweets you want, but you can't convince me that people are stupid.



...Or at least I hope you can't.
 

Loser Araysar

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All right, man. I'll change my analogy: Ron Paul is the cinder block. You correctly refuse to tie the cinder block around your neck, and this decision prevents you from being pulled to the bottom of the ocean. Congratulations. Do you feel better now as the water surrounds your ankles, your knees, your waist, your shoulders, your neck...?

This is it. The crux of my argument. I don't give a shit about Ron Paul. I'm not "pro Ron Paul", I'm just "anti this shit". So yeah, maybe my desperation to get off the sinking ship has me putting too much faith in unproven ideas. But we're on a sinking ship, and all everyone seems to be able to do is yell at the one guy who's trying to think outside the box. Maybe his ideas aren't great. Maybe his ideas are terrible. Maybe his ideas are fucking stupid, even. However, I still commend him for being the one person trying to fix these problems we all agree are very real, while everyone else is just laughing and making things worse.

He got tremendous support from the military. He got young people into politics like they've never been before. He got people around the world thinking about how American politics could change for the better. Even if you think he would have been a disaster, there was something there that captured the hearts and spirits of many, many people. Can't we take anything from that? I'll accept your statement that Ron Paul was considered and found wanting. Can't we analyze why he earned such fervent support from so many and demand to see more ofthatfrom the people who are supposed to represent us? Otherwise, all you're telling me is that we're fucked. The ship is still sinking, except now that the idiot with the cinder blocks has been thrown overboard, we're all just sitting around twiddling our thumbs nervously as the water continues to rise.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be manipulated and exploited? Why are we letting greed decide the limits of what we can accomplish as a species? You could consider these rhetorical questions or ideological daydreaming or whatever, but the fact that we all have some pretty great freedoms (despite the ones being slowly taken away) and we live in a democracy where we're all supposed to have a voice means that if we're not able to put our voices together to fix these problems, it's because we assume that everyone is dumber than us and doesn't understand what's going on. Thanks to a manipulative and irresponsible media and the simple distractions of pop music, video games and alcohol it's easy to assume most people are completely out of the loop, but I can't help but feel this is taking the easy way out. One thing I've learned in my years trying to get a good understanding of things around me is that I'm not special. Anything I learn has been learned by millions, anything I feel has been felt my millions. There can't be not enough intelligent people in North America to fix this shit. You can show me all the Honey Boo-Boo, McDonald's fights and moronic Tweets you want, but you can't convince me that people are stupid.



...Or at least I hope you can't.
What is it with the assumption that we are sinking ship? The US survived a civil war a century and a half ago for god's sake. If anything, our ship is slightly off course, rather than sinking. And instead of veering back on course, someone keeps suggesting that we should listen to Captain Ron who knows a "really awesome shortcut"
 

Ishad

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You are talking with a guy who thinks Ron "I've never voted for an earmark" Paul is a man of honesty and principle, just give up now.
 

chaos

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No shit. Even the poor people in our country are relatively ok. We have a hell of a lot to work on but that doesn't mean it is time to start panicking and veer "the ship" in random directions.
 

Heylel

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It goes further than that. We have a superlative record in terms of government and social stability, not just prosperity. Say what you will about our government, but we have regular elections, an efficient (though imperfect) distribution of resources throughout an enormous territory, and a level of safety and social continuity unheard of on whole continents. Pretty much the only first world country with an older government than us is the UK, and that's assuming you don't count their Irish troubles or the transition of power from the King to Parliament. For fuck's sake, most of Europe's major powers have governments younger than my grandfather.

We are a bastion of civilization. Have we got room to improve? Damn straight. But we're not even remotely a sinking ship. We're a goddamn rock. Other ships crash on *us*.
 

Sebudai

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a) So you're a "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't" guy. I'm a "to continue the same approach and expect a different result is the definition of insanity" guy. Just two ways of looking at the same situation.
b) I'm not pro-anarchy, and I'm not perfectly happy to give up any rights. Every right we have we have for a reason. People fought and died to earn us those rights and I'm not about to let some asshole who works for the 1% decide to take them away for my "protection" (this applies in Canada too). Well, not without bitching about it online, at least.
c) Well, shit, a sock puppet caught in a wind chime would have been a gigantic improvement over Bush in regards to foreign policy. I'm still very much not OK with drone strikes, though.
abc structure is so much better than quote splitting.

a) I don't consider Ron Paul the "devil I don't know." I take him at his word that he'll do what he says he'll do (making considerations for what's realistically possible) and I don't want what he's selling. You're talking about him like he's a lottery ticket and we should just take our chances. That's not the case. He tells us what his policies would be, and I know what the executive branch is/isn't capable of doing. Why would I want to roll the dice on his policies? They've never worked anywhere ever.
b) I don't even know what rights we're talking about.
c) I am okay with them. Furthermore, Ron Paul's foreign policy is too isolationist and naive. It's certainly much better than Bush's Iraq war idiocy, but it is not ideal. Obama's foreign policy is closer to ideal.

We are a bastion of civilization. Have we got room to improve? Damn straight. But we're not even remotely a sinking ship. We're a goddamn rock. Other ships crash on *us*.
Chestbump.
 

Loser Araysar

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Since the peanut gallery didnt have the nads to post here, I'll do it for them.

Thread: Libertarianism - the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
you suck dude. i couldn't make it past post number3 of yours in this thread before i had to stop reading your shit
03-20-2013 02:58 PM
swayze22
So sorry to hear that. Perhaps you can offer a thoughtful defense of libertarianism?

Thread: Libertarianism - the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
How is it possible that you can be wrong about every opinion, ever?
03-20-2013 10:50 PM
Dandai
What was I wrong about? "States' Rights" argument has historically been used to disenfranchise minorities and virtually nothing else. It didnt even come into the collective consciousness until the Civil War era, prior to that it was considered to be an obscure piece of the Constitution. It has been commonly known to be a "code word" used by segregationists to defend segregation since the Great Depression.
 

Eorkern

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I don't understand how someone can pretend the boat is sinking when he's not even on the fucking boat ... Just stop man.
 

fanaskin

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TheReality based alternativeto drone strikes was sending more troops overseas but I prefer to use drones as I am sure you would.
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that's not true, how many missions would never have occured if drones weren't an option, and if you generally believe that killing foreigners in their country probably for no good reason creates hostility to the US I don't see a valid reason we should be engaged as we are if we didn't want access to lithium and oil.

That's what drones represent killing machines without morals, at least with people it takes exposure to rigorous mental training to rid them of their empathy.
 

fanaskin

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Since the peanut gallery didnt have the nads to post here, I'll do it for them.



So sorry to hear that. Perhaps you can offer a thoughtful defense of libertarianism?



What was I wrong about? "States' Rights" argument has historically been used to disenfranchise minorities and virtually nothing else. It didnt even come into the collective consciousness until the Civil War era, prior to that it was considered to be an obscure piece of the Constitution. It has been commonly known to be a "code word" used by segregationists to defend segregation since the Great Depression.
If neo-liberals don't like something it's "racist".

states rights clause has to do with limiting the power of central government for obvious reasons, but since you have so much faith that government should tender your every need I see why you don't see a need for it.

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Alexander Hamilton explained the limitations this clause placed on the proposed federal government, describing that acts of the federal government were binding on the states and the people therein only if the act was in pursuance of constitutionally granted powers, and juxtaposing acts which exceeded those bounds as "void and of no force":

"But it will not follow from this doctrine that acts of the large society which are not pursuant to its constitutional powers, but which are invasions of the residuary authorities of the smaller societies, will become the supreme law of the land. These will be merely acts of usurpation, and will deserve to be treated as such."
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oh hi Thomas Jefferson and James Madison what do you have to say?

"Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: That to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party....each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.

------------------------

Your narrative of states rights = racism, a shitty simplistic narrative? yes!


"The historian James McPherson noted that Southerners were inconsistent on the states' rights issue, and that Northern states tried to protect the rights of their states against the South during the Gag Rule and fugitive slave law controversies.

The historian William H. Freehling noted that the South's argument for a states' rights to secede was different from Thomas Jefferson's, in that Jefferson based such a right on the unalienable equal rights of man. The South's version of such a right was modified to be consistent with slavery, and with the South's blend of democracy and authoritarianism.

Between the slave power and states' rights there was no necessary connection. The slave power, when in control, was a centralizing influence, and all the most considerable encroachments on states' rights were its acts. The acquisition and admission of Louisiana; the Embargo; the War of 1812; the annexation of Texas "by joint resolution" [rather than treaty]; the war with Mexico, declared by the mere announcement of President Polk; the Fugitive Slave Law; the Dred Scott decision - all triumphs of the slave power - did far more than either tariffs or internal improvements, which in their origin were also southern measures, to destroy the very memory of states' rights as they existed in 1789. Whenever a question arose of extending or protecting slavery, the slaveholders became friends of centralized power, and used that dangerous weapon with a kind of frenzy. Slavery in fact required centralization in order to maintain and protect itself, but it required to control the centralized machine; it needed despotic principles of government, but it needed them exclusively for its own use. Thus, in truth, states' rights were the protection of the free states, and as a matter of fact, during the domination of the slave power, Massachusetts appealed to this protecting principle as often and almost as loudly as South Carolina."
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there are good historical arguments for states rights because I believe beyond regulating interaction between people, regulating peoples actions directly is wrong. and that's what the federal government is becoming, central rule by committee, regulation and decree that bypasses due process.
 

Tanoomba

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I'm glad to hear such optimism regarding your country's current state of affairs.
It warms my heart that you believe in the human spirit's ability to overcome any and all obstacles. I believe in that too.
But what I see going on right now is not a matter of "the US has been through worse", nor is it "sure, we've got some problems, but we're still awesome overall".
I see a sinking ship. I see the 1% as the greatest villains this world has ever seen (feel free to throw out examples of villains you think were worse), and so far we have no way to combat them.
Make no mistake, just because I live in Canada, doesn't mean I'm not on the sinking ship too.
But whatever, as far as you're concerned I'm just overreacting and blowing things out of proportion.
 

fanaskin

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they accept the shitty choice willingly because politics = good cop / bad cop.
 

Selix

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that's not true, how many missions would never have occured if drones weren't an option, and if you generally believe that killing foreigners in their country probably for no good reason creates hostility to the US I don't see a valid reason we should be engaged as we are if we didn't want access to lithium and oil.

That's what drones represent killing machines without morals, at least with people it takes exposure to rigorous mental training to rid them of their empathy.
Who said anything about # of missions? The goal is to reduce troop and civilian casualties and drone strikes have done that. Since the ideal solution wasn't available, drone strikes are the better option.