Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Haast

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Jesus fucking christ get your kids on health insurance.
From what I read he did, or rather his wife did by fudging the state assistance system. So at least she is defrauding them for a good cause. Onoes made it pretty clear that since the family insurance plans at work were not to his liking, he was OK letting his kids go uninsured.

wormie's case was a little different. Some people just aren't cut out for marriage and he seems like one of em. Gotta live your life.
It probably doesn't help that wormie is an intensely shitty internet persona on the whole, not just when it comes to marriage stuff.
 

Omi43221

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By your own admission family lawyers are a steaming pile of douche bags. Can you atleast admit that telling him to go see one also entails it's own problems and risks.

@Cad
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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By your own admission family lawyers are a steaming pile of douche bags. Can you atleast admit that telling him to go see one also entails it's own problems and risks.

@Cad
Oh they totally are. But they can act that way because they are necessary.
 

Funkor

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From what I read he did, or rather his wife did by fudging the state assistance system. So at least she is defrauding them for a good cause. Onoes made it pretty clear that since the family insurance plans at work were not to his liking, he was OK letting his kids go uninsured.
His wife did through state assistance. Figure out a legitimate way to get assisted insurance for them so you don't get fucked later, or take the money you've been giving your ex under the table (to spend on yoga instead of food apparently given the food stamps) and move to a family plan. Tiptoeing around avoiding lawyers and trying to keep everything "amicable" then letting your kids go without insurance is just ludicrous. Hell, avoid making too many waves until both of you can figure that out because if you end up in family court a judge might just bonk both of your heads together for having your priorities all fucked up.
 

Omi43221

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Oh they totally are. But they can act that way because they are necessary.
So everyone demanding he go to a lawyer just be aware. that the end result of that could be Oonoes out another 20k in legal fees on top of the court deciding what the hell you should still pay your ex 10k in back child support. Even though he did go to a lawyer.
 

Slaythe

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Onoes, I think you should take some steps to protect yourself not because there is an imminent threat to your financial security, but just because it's the smart thing to do when dealing with this stuff.

Get a lawyer, explain everything. Get her off the mortgage, start paying official child support, make sure your kids have health insurance.

I think a lot of people here misjudge your ex's intentions. From what you've said, I don't think she has some elaborate plan to dick you over, but she sounds kind of dumb and naive. And dumb people can have their minds changed easily. What if she goes through a down stretch while she gets to see you all happy with your new upgraded spouse? Is it possible the little bit of push she's gotten from her lawyer friend could turn into something more?

I think it's important to protect yourself. When you hire a lawyer, there isn't going to be a sign on your forehead that reads, "i no longer trust my ex." Get legal representation. Don't tell her about it. Start doing everything official. Best case scenario you do all that and nothing changes. But it's much better of the worst case where she just leeches off you to survive for the rest of your life.

And you really should have done all of this at the start. Which is what everyone told you then. That's not me trying to upset you, it's just the truth.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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So everyone demanding he go to a lawyer just be aware. that the end result of that could be Oonoes out another 20k in legal fees on top of the court deciding what the hell you should still pay your ex 10k in back child support. Even though he did go to a lawyer.
I don't think anyone is telling him to go get a lawyer on retainer and go on the offensive. Just go get some legal advice and discuss options.
 

Omi43221

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I don't think anyone is telling him to go get a lawyer on retainer and go on the offensive. Just go get some legal advice and discuss options.
Oh, so you know the family lawyer that discusses all your options with you before getting a retainer. If you know of such a lawyer feel free to PM me and Oonoes the information.
 

Phazael

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There are men's advocate lawyers out there, but paying a couple billable hours to discuss his situation and options is also a possibility and won't put someone on retainer. But hey, clearly letting his wife defraud the government and his kids slip off of insurance is the better plan....
 

Soygen

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Oh, so you know the family lawyer that discusses all your options with you before getting a retainer. If you know of such a lawyer feel free to PM me and Oonoes the information.
You make good points. He should continue to do everything exactly as he's doing it. He should only share the info with strangers on ReRolled and forget about any kind of professional advice and assistance.

You don't have to pay 10 grand for a couple hours of legal advice.
 

Omi43221

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That's not what he said he's going to do. He said he will eventually refinance the house through his name once he has the money. Once that is finished he will petition the court to go through them for child support even though the current decree says he doesn't have to pay anything. If at any point along the way she seems like she is getting to salty he will lawyer up. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
 

a_skeleton_03

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That's not what he said he's going to do. He said he will eventually refinance the house through his name once he has the money. Once that is finished he will petition the court to go through them for child support even though the current decree says he doesn't have to pay anything. If at any point along the way she seems likeshe is getting to saltyhe will lawyer up. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
That ship has already sailed straight to the Salton Sea.
 

Xequecal

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I don't get the child support land mine thing, to be honest. Is it actually possible for you to work out an agreement for support, pay that for 17 years, have documented proof of the agreement and that the checks you were making out were for child support, only for the court to throw all that away and award the mother a half million dollars for 17 years of "back" child support, despite the fact that the kid is turning 18 in six months?
 

Funkor

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I don't get the child support land mine thing, to be honest. Is it actually possible for you to work out an agreement for support, pay that for 17 years, have documented proof of the agreement and that the checks you were making out were for child support, only for the court to throw all that away and award the mother a half million dollars for 17 years of "back" child support, despite the fact that the kid is turning 18 in six months?
Child Support Calculator

A.R.S. ? 46-441 states "[p]ayment of any money directly to an obligee or to any person other than the Support Payment Clearinghouse will not be credited against the support obligation, unless the direct payments were ordered by the court or made pursuant to a written support agreement by the parties."
I imagine the money he is giving her currently could be considered a "gift" at this point and she might get some heat from the IRS if it was not reported on taxes over a certain amount per year or whatever.

Everything could work out fine in the end (as long as you get insurance on dem kids!) but with this lawyer friend playing Wyrmtongue by her ear I'd advise caution.
 

Slaythe

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I don't get the child support land mine thing, to be honest. Is it actually possible for you to work out an agreement for support, pay that for 17 years, have documented proof of the agreement and that the checks you were making out were for child support, only for the court to throw all that away and award the mother a half million dollars for 17 years of "back" child support, despite the fact that the kid is turning 18 in six months?
I'm not a lawyer, but from a common sense standpoint their "agreement" sounds very fishy. He calls it under the table. And the purpose of that was so she could fudge her income. Family law varies from state to state and I at least can imagine a situation where a judge leaning toward the mother would dismiss the memo portion of a check.

Again, it's not that any of these doom scenarios are for sure going to happen. It's that they might and why I think he should get everything officially on the books. Like the W2 thing. Oh your lawyer friend said I had to give it to you. Ok, I guess...here it is. I think Onoes goes to great lengths to appease everyone. If i had an ex that told me 'by law you have to give me your W2s' my response would be something like 'hmm, well I'm going to check into that and if it turns out you're right I have no problem.' And then I talk to a lawyer.
 

Omi43221

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I don't get the child support land mine thing, to be honest. Is it actually possible for you to work out an agreement for support, pay that for 17 years, have documented proof of the agreement and that the checks you were making out were for child support, only for the court to throw all that away and award the mother a half million dollars for 17 years of "back" child support, despite the fact that the kid is turning 18 in six months?
Unfortunately the answer is yes. It's possible, If you read any men's divorce forums you hear about all kinds of shenanigans and unbelievable rulings. The one over arching theme you get from it is the lawyers 'win'. They get their money. You don't hear by and large the courts are fair and reasonable. You don't hear they look at the merits of each case. Hell I'm really glad I don't live in Canada.
 

Jx3

Riddle me this...
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"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

You got that first part down, need a little work on the second.
 

BrotherWu

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Onoes,

About 2 or 3 years into my marriage (we're at 18 now), my wife and I were really struggling with getting along. I got tired of the crazy and decided I would go to a lawyer and talk through things with him to see what I should be doing, what my options were, etc. Really nice guy- I spent about an hour with him and he assured me that, if the wife and I could be as amicable as possible, it could really cut down on how much we'd be paying lawyers. Just talking through things with him really made me feel better and made me feel that I understood my options. It put my mind at ease.

After we were done, I went up to the receptionist to pay or at least give her my address for an invoice and he happened to walking through and waived me off and said don't worry about it. Do some research and find a lawyer who isn't a money grabbing jackhole and see if you can have an initial consultation with him. Even if he doesn't do it provide a free consultation, you are only about probably an hour at whatever his rate is.

In my case, I didn't need him in the end. But, for once in your life, act like a big boy and lawyer the fuck up. It doesn't mean you have to go aggressive but there might be some small things you can do to really protect yourself.
 

Onoes

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Hey, who is this group!?! It's like human beings all being reasonable and just having a discussion. I'm glad I checked the thread now, I sat down at the PC and went "Should I even bother?", but lo and behold!

OK, lets see if I can cover all the questions and stuff.


In regards to my X being a scumbag for abusing gov programs... I don't even think twice about that. Maybe its just because its so common here? I just assumed its like this everywhere. I know a bunch of people who abuse Gov programs. I have friends who aren't married so they can claim shit. I have friends who aren't married so they can get financial aid for school. I have 3 separate friends who all get disability stuff for life after leaving the military, all for just made up shit. "Ever since boot camp it hurts when I stand for two long." Lifetime checks of free money (that guy just went backpacking across Germany for 6 weeks, I believe he is on food stamps too.) While I definitely know people who have huge issues with it - it seems like most people I meet are of the "Yeah, its a terrible rigged system that everyone takes advantage of, either you can join in, or just have a lower quality of life for your morals." kind of thing. When I hear someone is scamming free money from the government, its basically the same as hearing they pirate music on their PC's to me. (Obviously its not the same, I'm just saying, as far as my outrage is concerned.)

About not insuring my kids- My work plan is $844 dollars per pay period for family coverage (every 2 weeks), or $22,000 a year. So, that's a third of my income before taxes. I personally have been to the hospital one time when I was 7, and then again 2 years ago. So, twice in almost 37 years. I'm sure if my situation were different, I would feel differently, but as it stands, it seems like a huge scam to me. All insurance does really. Here is the other thing, each of my kids has had to go to the hospital once already. The costs of those two trips were $36,000 and $12,000, for a total of $48,000. I then called the hospital and said I didn't have insurance, so I need to get on a payment plan or something. They had me send over mine and my wives last pay stubs, and adjusted the bill. It went from $48,000 to $11,000. They just wrote off $37,000. On top of that, they told me I was free to make payments on the bill at no interest, as long as I made a minimum of $90 per month. So as far as crippling hospital debt goes, so far that hasn't been an issue. I understand if one of the kids gets cancer or something it will be some astronomical figure... but all that will mean is that I pay some minimum monthly payment for the rest of my life that is far smaller than the cost of insurance. Or I'll move to another country at some point and just forget about it.

Now all that being said, I would prefer to have the kids on health insurance, and yes, my x wife wanted $3000 more than she wanted that, but I just paid the difference so they could stay on it another year. So they currently do have health insure, its just the amazing free government insurance that I don't qualify for, but she does.

As for the house stuff, yeah, I have no idea what will happen with that if I have to go back to court for it. I assume nothing would change, but who knows, hence me leaning towards handling that before I go back to court.

As for why I'm paying child support with a 50-50 agreement- Here is the child support calc AZ uses (2015 Child Support Calculator
) which, as you can see is very simple. You put in your kids info, you put in mother and father wages, and then you have three options. More time with mom (I pay her about $2,000 a month), 50-50 (I pay her $320), or more time with dad (She would pay me $900). If one parent makes more than the other the state makes them pay a little so that the kids don't have ramen at moms house and lobster at dads basically. Either one of us would be fucked if it wasn't 50-50 by the way, as 2k is half my monlthy income, and $900 is almost half hers, it's crazy how much the state decree's must be given.

As for why I pay child support under the table- it was to help her out, so that she wouldn't have to claim the income. That being said, when I go to court I would say "Well, we originally weren't going to do child support, I was just going to cover the costs of most things, but it was hard to manage, and she felt it was unfair, so after a couple of weeks and talking we decide to do it after all. We did it all according to the law, so we didn't think we need to waste the courts time with it as long as we weren't having problems. We still haven't had problems, but looking into it more, it seems like we should get it all on the books in everyone's best interest, which is why we are here today." or something to that effect. I obviously wouldn't mention anything untoward.

And BrotherWu, that's been my experience with Lawyers as well. When I had my whole giant stupid car thing I saw two lawyers, the first walked me through everything, referred me to the second, and didn't charge. The second sat down, told me all the ways it could play out, recommended that I not purse legal action as it would just cost me a bunch of money I would never get back, but made it clear if I wanted to, he would take the case and win (win nothing, but still). He also didn't charge me, and wished me luck. So yeah, I have no issue with talking to a lawyer from that perspective, the reason I didn't the first time is because A.) I didn't want her to get a lawyer and for everything to get mean, and B.) I knew a lot of the stuff we were doing was very shakey and a lawyer would say no way. Again, my belief that everything will work out ok won over. Which again, so far it has, but plan for the worst like Jx3 said.