Tarrant
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Marriage and the Power of Divorce
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Haast
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Re-read you own words here and tell me with a straight face you will ever trust her again. Unfortunately, this should be the end of the road.
Don't pack up your bag and leave for a few hours or a few nights. It's time to get your game plan together. It's good there isn't a lot of animosity, that gives you time to get your house in order and your lawyer lined up. It doesn't sound like she is prepared and you may be able to guide things in your favor if you stay in front of this.
Khane
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I used to have very idealistic, strong views on relationships with sex and fidelity being the cornerstone of those relationships. Over time I've come to realize that I really don't think it's important to expect another human being to give up any portion of their autonomy just for your own sake because it faulters and wavers and is something that is too hard for many people to do.
I don't begrudge the idea of monogamy at all, I understand the comfort and security that comes with it. But I think if you really tried you might be want to consider what Hoss is suggesting. Because the two of you had a certain agreement her actions are a betrayal, but she probably struggled with it for a very long time and can't fight human nature anymore. So you can call it quits if that doesn't work for you and you can't get past it, or you can remain together and work on things in a way that may be difficult for you at first, but she's got her own difficulties in your relationship as well that she needs to deal with.
I don't begrudge the idea of monogamy at all, I understand the comfort and security that comes with it. But I think if you really tried you might be want to consider what Hoss is suggesting. Because the two of you had a certain agreement her actions are a betrayal, but she probably struggled with it for a very long time and can't fight human nature anymore. So you can call it quits if that doesn't work for you and you can't get past it, or you can remain together and work on things in a way that may be difficult for you at first, but she's got her own difficulties in your relationship as well that she needs to deal with.
chaos
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Yeah man, I hate to give anyone advice, especially this kind of advice, but you need to zen the fuck out, focus, and get a gameplan together. No more ultimatums and packing your shit and whatever. Figure out the end game (you know what it is) and work backwards from there.
I'm so sorry this happened bro. If it was a matter of an open relationship or just coming up with different ways to get her off or something I would think that was one thing, but this sounds like something very different. And honestly, and I say this not knowing your situation but having dealt with a similar thing with my uncle and his wife, it is possible she doesn't have the courage/willpower to leave you but wants to. With my uncle it was a guilt thing, his wife stayed with him because he was a quadriplegic and she felt like she had to. Again, I don't know your situation and it could be nothing like that at all, but it sounds very similar.
I'm so sorry this happened bro. If it was a matter of an open relationship or just coming up with different ways to get her off or something I would think that was one thing, but this sounds like something very different. And honestly, and I say this not knowing your situation but having dealt with a similar thing with my uncle and his wife, it is possible she doesn't have the courage/willpower to leave you but wants to. With my uncle it was a guilt thing, his wife stayed with him because he was a quadriplegic and she felt like she had to. Again, I don't know your situation and it could be nothing like that at all, but it sounds very similar.
opiate82
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Yeah, sounds like she obviously didn't understand the impact in spending the rest of her life with someone with that sort of handicap would have on her, and to me it feels like it goes way beyond just sex. She didn't want to be "that person" who ditches someone she supposedly loves just because they had an accident but is going to end up doing more damage by not honoring her commitment and allow big shit in their lives to happen (like kids) in the mean time. Now that isn't me saying that she should just suck it up and deal, because being unhappy is also a disservice to everyone around you no matter how well you think you hide it.
I have no easy answers, especially if counseling didn't help. Seems like you guys not only need couples counseling, but she could also use some for herself and/or some sort of support group or something to help her deal with living a full life with someone with a handicap.
I have no easy answers, especially if counseling didn't help. Seems like you guys not only need couples counseling, but she could also use some for herself and/or some sort of support group or something to help her deal with living a full life with someone with a handicap.
Ameraves
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Thanks for the responses and feedback. I will do my best to answer as much as possible, and offer a bit of my own thinking.
To the suggestion of punching him in the face, of course that crossed my mind but there are a couple problems with it. First and foremost, I have already had an assault charge that I had to deal with once. Fighting is stupid and is almost never the answer. Two, being in a wheelchair I realize there isn't a whole lot of fighting I could do anyway.
As to the open relationship. Short answer, no way. It was something I contemplated but there is simply no way I could stomach it, and I don't think she is the kind of person that would deal well with it either.
To Haast's point about trust. That is the number one thing staring me in the face right now. I don't see how that trust ever gets earned back. I mean I suppose it is possible, and I don't think we would be the first couple in the history of the world to overcome something like this. But as it stands right now, I have a really hard time seeing it. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life questioning every time she gets a message, or feeling like I need to look through her phone to see if she is being honest. I feel dirty that I did that in the first place.
So here are some of my thoughts and why I still hold on to some sort of hope. It may simply be because I am trying to rationalize it all and put a happy spin on it. I really don't know, but hear me out. If it is all about sex, why not just go find someone to have sex with? She doesn't even actually see this guy, so there was clearly more going on than just the physical part. Who knows, maybe just the thought of being with someone who isn't disabled painted a pretty picture in her head and she let it get out of control. I think a lot of people do that, and it is the whole grass isn't always greener situation. Just because you suddenly are with someone who can have normal sex, that means everything else falls into place too? I just think if that really is it, she is putting a lot of stock into one very small aspect of life, that in my opinion would never be worth breaking up a family over. Shit I haven't had an orgasm in 11 years, she gets one every time we have "sex", and I managed to survive.
I don't have an answer there, which leads me into my main issue with all of this. Communication. Marriage isn't easy, even the best of marriages. However, if there is no communication there is no way any relationship will last. She doesn't communicate for shit. I get zero feedback from her, and even before this problem came up it was something that I always tried to work on with her and get her to open up. Regardless of what happens with us I told her she needs to go get some counseling. Even on a personal level she is going to blow up one of these days if she doesn't learn how to properly get her feelings out. But if she had talked with me when she first started feeling like this, we could have at least avoided the situation with him and worked on it together, as a marriage should be done. To me that is the part that just baffles me.
As to staying with me and feeling bad. Well shit, she could have left me at anytime for the first 5 years before we had kids. She knew nothing was going to change, and there was never an ounce of doubt in her, at least that I could see. She never made me feel guilty for having to help take care of me. She chose to have kids with me, knowing what my situation was, and I am sorry but at that point she needs to be a bit less selfish. And it isn't like she has to do much for me now. I work full time and she stays home with the kids. I drive myself around, I take care of the kids when she goes shopping. It isn't like I sit around and she has to babysit me. If we split up, I will be fully capable of taking care of myself.
To the suggestion of punching him in the face, of course that crossed my mind but there are a couple problems with it. First and foremost, I have already had an assault charge that I had to deal with once. Fighting is stupid and is almost never the answer. Two, being in a wheelchair I realize there isn't a whole lot of fighting I could do anyway.
As to the open relationship. Short answer, no way. It was something I contemplated but there is simply no way I could stomach it, and I don't think she is the kind of person that would deal well with it either.
To Haast's point about trust. That is the number one thing staring me in the face right now. I don't see how that trust ever gets earned back. I mean I suppose it is possible, and I don't think we would be the first couple in the history of the world to overcome something like this. But as it stands right now, I have a really hard time seeing it. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life questioning every time she gets a message, or feeling like I need to look through her phone to see if she is being honest. I feel dirty that I did that in the first place.
So here are some of my thoughts and why I still hold on to some sort of hope. It may simply be because I am trying to rationalize it all and put a happy spin on it. I really don't know, but hear me out. If it is all about sex, why not just go find someone to have sex with? She doesn't even actually see this guy, so there was clearly more going on than just the physical part. Who knows, maybe just the thought of being with someone who isn't disabled painted a pretty picture in her head and she let it get out of control. I think a lot of people do that, and it is the whole grass isn't always greener situation. Just because you suddenly are with someone who can have normal sex, that means everything else falls into place too? I just think if that really is it, she is putting a lot of stock into one very small aspect of life, that in my opinion would never be worth breaking up a family over. Shit I haven't had an orgasm in 11 years, she gets one every time we have "sex", and I managed to survive.
I don't have an answer there, which leads me into my main issue with all of this. Communication. Marriage isn't easy, even the best of marriages. However, if there is no communication there is no way any relationship will last. She doesn't communicate for shit. I get zero feedback from her, and even before this problem came up it was something that I always tried to work on with her and get her to open up. Regardless of what happens with us I told her she needs to go get some counseling. Even on a personal level she is going to blow up one of these days if she doesn't learn how to properly get her feelings out. But if she had talked with me when she first started feeling like this, we could have at least avoided the situation with him and worked on it together, as a marriage should be done. To me that is the part that just baffles me.
As to staying with me and feeling bad. Well shit, she could have left me at anytime for the first 5 years before we had kids. She knew nothing was going to change, and there was never an ounce of doubt in her, at least that I could see. She never made me feel guilty for having to help take care of me. She chose to have kids with me, knowing what my situation was, and I am sorry but at that point she needs to be a bit less selfish. And it isn't like she has to do much for me now. I work full time and she stays home with the kids. I drive myself around, I take care of the kids when she goes shopping. It isn't like I sit around and she has to babysit me. If we split up, I will be fully capable of taking care of myself.
Frenzied Wombat
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I know you can't help but look back on the relationship to rationalize the scenario she voluntarily chose to partake in, and I understand that it's embittering to be stuck in a negative situation that seemingly you did everything to avoid, but the fact of the matter is people change, and it sounds like she's having a female mid-life crisis of sorts.
If a chick isn't communicating, she's checked out and/or doesn't care anymore. Please don't take this in a cavalier fashion, as I don't mean it to come off that way and I understand that there are years of complex feelings/emotions at play, but my suggestion is to move on and perhaps find a woman in the same situation as yourself. It really sounds like your wife is doing everything possible to elicit a break-up, but isn't doing so herself-- probably because of guilt or uncertainty.
Ameraves
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Wombat, I would totally agree with you if it were a sudden change. She has literally always been this way when it comes to communication. It has just unfortunately now come at a much heavier price, so I don't think this is some new manifestation that she is creating because she is checking out. As to the forcing of the break up, I actually want to agree with that as well. However, if that was the case she could have simply left me alone last night and not begged me to come back. I have been through a divorce once, and when she gave me the opportunity to end it, I didn't hesitate. I didn't fight it at all. If she really wants out of this, she could have not contacted me at all last night and there is no way I would have come back.
Ameraves
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Hah, thanks for the offer, Sutekh, but no I am in Cali. And honestly I don't even want to go down that road. He is a shitty human being and it will eventually catch up with him anyway. I truly don't even want to spare him another thought.
BrotherWu
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Ameraves, bro, sorry how this has gone down for you. I imagine it has been difficult for her as well. We're humans.
That said, she has broken your trust several times and that is game over. Kids or no kids. I can't support the idea of crawling back. You love the kids and they will be fine. I agree with others: Figure out where you want to be in a year and in five years and get your game plan together.
Also, for those who were wondering, she's my wife's sister. She actually modeled a bit when she was younger. She's now a 30-something trophy wife to my brother-in-law, who is quite a bit older than her but loaded. I've always had a little something for her so it doesn't surprise me that it has led to these dreams. The brother-in-law is a good guy and we are friends so in the dreams we are always sneaking around and when I wake up it's like HOLY SHIT that just happened. As I said, very vivid. I wish I had lucid dreaming skills because it's always right on the edge if full blown porn sex. Lot's of touching and just the tip. I wish I could just bend it over and hit it good.
Will report in.
That said, she has broken your trust several times and that is game over. Kids or no kids. I can't support the idea of crawling back. You love the kids and they will be fine. I agree with others: Figure out where you want to be in a year and in five years and get your game plan together.
Also, for those who were wondering, she's my wife's sister. She actually modeled a bit when she was younger. She's now a 30-something trophy wife to my brother-in-law, who is quite a bit older than her but loaded. I've always had a little something for her so it doesn't surprise me that it has led to these dreams. The brother-in-law is a good guy and we are friends so in the dreams we are always sneaking around and when I wake up it's like HOLY SHIT that just happened. As I said, very vivid. I wish I had lucid dreaming skills because it's always right on the edge if full blown porn sex. Lot's of touching and just the tip. I wish I could just bend it over and hit it good.
Will report in.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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The hardest thing that I ever had to come to terms with was that it's OK when people change and relationships don't work out. It's not anyone's fault when two people don't work romantically. It really isn't. I tormented myself for close to two years over a woman I thought I would never get over until I realized that it's OK. It's OK when someone falls out of love with you or you fall out of love with someone. It's life. It happens.
You can choose to let it rule your life and let bitterness ruin your outlook or you can choose to take comfort in the fact that there is someone out there, probably much closer than you thought, who is good for you and that this person you just ended things with isn't "the one". Because "the one" doesn't exist. "The one" is a disney fantasy that does nothing but make people miserable.
You can choose to let it rule your life and let bitterness ruin your outlook or you can choose to take comfort in the fact that there is someone out there, probably much closer than you thought, who is good for you and that this person you just ended things with isn't "the one". Because "the one" doesn't exist. "The one" is a disney fantasy that does nothing but make people miserable.
Frenzied Wombat
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The problem is you are trying to "rationalize" her behavior. Women don't consistently act in a rational fashion, particularly on issues defined by emotions, like their relationships. Who knows why she contacted you last night? A moment of guilt? fear? A memory of a great time you had together a few years back? The list goes on. You need to look at the over-arching atmosphere/conditions of the relationship, rather than driving yourself crazy over individual things she does.
My suggestion if you don't want to go the break-up route? Ask her to write you a letter/email defining the current state of the relationship and where she sees you two in two years. If it helps, offer to write her one first that summarizes your concerns. I know it sounds weird, but she may be able to communicate things in writing that she is unwilling to discuss face to face.
Ameraves
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Fair point about me trying to rationalize it. And that is probably why I decided to post it up here. Lots of opinions and different sides of the spectrum that people can offer.
As far as not wanting to go the break-up route...yeah I don't know. Like I said before, I don't want to simply because of the kids. I know I could live without her, but I also don't have a pressing desire to be away from her. It isn't like this whole ordeal made me stop loving her, but in a different situation I could more easily leave her. Ideally I would like for it to work out if possible, but I am also fully aware that it may not work out and I simply may not be able to get past this.
As far as not wanting to go the break-up route...yeah I don't know. Like I said before, I don't want to simply because of the kids. I know I could live without her, but I also don't have a pressing desire to be away from her. It isn't like this whole ordeal made me stop loving her, but in a different situation I could more easily leave her. Ideally I would like for it to work out if possible, but I am also fully aware that it may not work out and I simply may not be able to get past this.
Khane
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Would you leave her because you want to feel like a strong human being who won't be taken advantage of or do you want to leave her because you honestly feel betrayed and can't even look at her anymore?
Those are two very different things and one allows an amicable parting of ways if the two of you are willing to talk and one doesn't.
Those are two very different things and one allows an amicable parting of ways if the two of you are willing to talk and one doesn't.
Ameraves
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It would be the first one. I didn't want to come back last night, and it wasn't because I didn't want to look at her, but because I knew I deserved better and was feeling very prideful about it.
I may be a cripple, but I am a good fucking person. I work hard and provide a good life for my family. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I am constantly have people telling me how impressed they are with my attitude on life. As I am generally always quite upbeat, and I simply don't let little things get me down. To me though, it doesn't make sense to be any other way. I had two options after my accident. Sit around and mope, focus on what I can't do anymore, and be miserable for the rest of my life. Or focus on the positive, be happy that I am still alive, and take life for what it still is. I chose the latter. I appreciate when people tell me those things, but to me it is the only thing that even makes sense.
I don't want to be taken advantage of, and I really don't want to let her shit on me. But I also am having a hard time, because of the kids, simply walking away and not at least trying. But the multiple lies keep coming back into my head...
I may be a cripple, but I am a good fucking person. I work hard and provide a good life for my family. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I am constantly have people telling me how impressed they are with my attitude on life. As I am generally always quite upbeat, and I simply don't let little things get me down. To me though, it doesn't make sense to be any other way. I had two options after my accident. Sit around and mope, focus on what I can't do anymore, and be miserable for the rest of my life. Or focus on the positive, be happy that I am still alive, and take life for what it still is. I chose the latter. I appreciate when people tell me those things, but to me it is the only thing that even makes sense.
I don't want to be taken advantage of, and I really don't want to let her shit on me. But I also am having a hard time, because of the kids, simply walking away and not at least trying. But the multiple lies keep coming back into my head...
Khane
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You aren't being taken advantage of. People need all kind of different things to feel fulfilled and it's impossible for one person to fulfill all of those things.
Don't feel slighted. It really is impossible to expect one person to be everything you need, yet we still do it. It's a lesson in futility. Some people are lucky enough that the things they need from other humans can be attained in non threatening ways to their significant other. Some people can't fulfill the needs of their partner in a meaningful way which causes one to feel as though there has been an embarassing betrayal. And the only reason it's embarrassing is because we let it be. Make no mistake about that.
You aren't less of a man because of the actions of another human being. Romantic nonsense is what leads you to believe that you are. You aren't. Things just didn't work out with another human being. No differently than if you took a job that didn't work out. Yet we're trained to believe it's much worse. It isn't. It's OK.
You aren't a failure. You aren't scum. And neither is your wife.
Don't feel slighted. It really is impossible to expect one person to be everything you need, yet we still do it. It's a lesson in futility. Some people are lucky enough that the things they need from other humans can be attained in non threatening ways to their significant other. Some people can't fulfill the needs of their partner in a meaningful way which causes one to feel as though there has been an embarassing betrayal. And the only reason it's embarrassing is because we let it be. Make no mistake about that.
You aren't less of a man because of the actions of another human being. Romantic nonsense is what leads you to believe that you are. You aren't. Things just didn't work out with another human being. No differently than if you took a job that didn't work out. Yet we're trained to believe it's much worse. It isn't. It's OK.
You aren't a failure. You aren't scum. And neither is your wife.
We had the open relationship discussion after his first post but I'll add something to it. You cannot have an open relationship with someone who cannot communicate well. His wife, from everything he has posted, fails miserably in this area. So I wouldn't put it on the table even if Ameraves thought he could deal with it.
Also cheating with someone you know your partner thinks is scum is so much worse.
Also cheating with someone you know your partner thinks is scum is so much worse.
Khane
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I'm starting to think you're full of shit. An open relationship has nothing to do with "communication" and everything to do with acceptance.
I think you're a big bag of holier than thou wind after experiencing it myself.
From a practical standpoint he is right. When you are intertwining the possible feelings of multiple parties the communication has to be excellent and above board to avoid misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and the like. If your "main" partner brings home someone as an option you don't like you need to be able to tell them in a fashion that makes it clear you aren't for integrating them in to your triangle, square, whatever. Otherwise resentment and worse starts building as you passively allow the situation to grow. I'd assume acceptance would be important as well, but communication would seem to be key. I mean it's number one in a monogamous relationship. I would imagine it would be only more important when you have multiple people's emotions involved.