Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Jx3_sl said:

I like yah kid, I really do. Seriously no woman has ever had "just a conversation" with her man. I just got done talking to my girl last night about her finances, I finally sat her done and showed her everything thats fucked and what needs to be done. This is after convincing her that I'm not looking for an excuse to break up with her, yes I feel like we could make a life together, and no again, I swear to christ on a fucking Townhouse cracker Im not looking for an excuse to ditch you. Sorry, had a flashback....

I mainly blame her mother for her paranoid delusions about me breaking up randomly. From the pieces I could gather apparently her dad left for another woman just out of the blue. He stays in contact with his daughter, pays child support on time all the time. I think it broke her mom though. So lucky me I get to deal with her crazy ass.

Sorry just needed to vent, after pissing and moaning in the depression thread i decided to man up and deal with shit. I love this girl but her money situation is bullshit. After driving through her head why bounce fees ARE NOT A GOD DAMN SAFETY NET!!!11OneEleven!! We seemed to really make some headway.
All seriousness though, good luck with the chat bro, but be prepared. Just don't let her know your prepared unless it goes shitty.

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Never, EVER, even *consider* marrying someone that can't handle their finances. If she can't manage her money properly, she sure as hell won't do any better when she has access to yours. Now, I'm not talking about someone who has accumulated a lot of debt via endeavors like a college education and is actively working it off, I'm talking about that person that has no concept of the term budget, pays bills late all the time, spends money on wants before needs, accumulates overdraft fees because of poor planning, racks up ATM charges because she's lazy, and uses shopping for emotional therapy. Been there, done that, and have watched friends marry these gems. At best you spend your life trying to reign in her spending and handling all financial matters, at worst she seriously impedes any attempts at savings and craters your credit score.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

Never, EVER, even *consider* marrying someone that can't handle their finances. If she can't manage her money properly, she sure as hell won't do any better when she has access to yours. Now, I'm not talking about someone who has accumulated a lot of debt via endeavors like a college education and is actively working it off, I'm talking about that person that has no concept of the term budget, pays bills late all the time, spends money on wants before needs, accumulates overdraft fees because of poor planning, racks up ATM charges because she's lazy, and uses shopping for emotional therapy. Been there, done that, and have watched friends marry these gems. At best you spend your life trying to reign in her spending and handling all financial matters, at worst she seriously impedes any attempts at savings and craters your credit score.

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I LOL'ed at this....this is some terrible advice. There's plenty of people that can't handle finances very well, that doesn't mean you should just instantly rule them out of marriage. What if everything else about them is just amazing? If your in love with someone how they handle their finances isn't going to matter. Not to mention there are plenty of ways to fix this situation. Take a finance class, teach them, just don't let them handle finances and so on.

Crazily_sl said:

I LOL'ed at this....this is some terrible advice. There's plenty of people that can't handle finances very well, that doesn't mean you should just instantly rule them out of marriage. What if everything else about them is just amazing? If your in love with someone how they handle their finances isn't going to matter. Not to mention there are plenty of ways to fix this situation. Take a finance class, teach them, just don't let them handle finances and so on.

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The inability to manage finances is symptomatic of a larger issue, namely irresponsibility, disorganization, and sometimes laziness. To clarify, I'm not talking about someone that doesn't make good investment decisions, doesn't contribute to their 401K, or lives paycheck to paycheck. I'm talking about that person who literally throws money away on bad/frivolous purchases, prioritizes wants over needs, has no clue what their cash flow is (and doesn't care), and racks up fees/charges/penalties as a result. You don't have to fucking "teach" someone that writing a check with $0 in your account will result in an overdraft fee, they already know this, they just either don't care or have been too lazy to track their balance. If they haven't learnt basic fiscalresponsibilityby adulthood, you aren't going to be the one to teach them, and it certainly isn't a topic covered in a finance class.

Deathwing: I fully condone dating fake tits, but don't marry her if she can't balance her check book

Lejina_sl said:

The only exception to that would be a relationship where one member acknowledge their shittiness with money and forfeit all monetary power to the other. I'm sure you all can think of an old couple where the guy gets an allowance and the wife handles all fiscal matter or vice versa. It's pretty rare with our generation or the younger one however. But that would be a way to make it work, otherwise I have to agree with wombat, people who are bad with money are invariably bad news. It's like an addict, you have to deal with an endless stream of bullshit and you never know when your world will come crashing down.

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People follow terrible advice all the time, that doesn't make it any less terrible. If you have to deal with an endless stream of bullshit then there are bigger issues other then just being bad at managing money.

Either way it's not something I worry about because I have already decided I am never getting married. If I WAS though, whether or not a person was good with finances would not be a factor. The idea that a person with poor financial skills is lazy, incompetent, disorganized and so forth is just ignorant.

Speaking from personal experience I know at least 2 people that are married where one of them is terrible at finances. Those people are however, great at other things such as being a mother/cook, talented musician, very artistic and so on. Another example? My best friend of 20 years is horrible at opening his mail, he lets that shit stack up for a month but he's an awesome friend, a math genius and pretty damn funny. Does his laziness with mail/bills make him suck? Nope....at least his wife doesn't seem to think so considering they have been married almost 10 years now.

You can apply this to other area's in life as well. Just because you might suck at some things, doesn't mean you suck at everything.

I don't really enjoy debating topics with random people on message boards but goddamn sometimes the ignorance is just to strong for me to ignore.

Crazily_sl said:

People follow terrible advice all the time, that doesn't make it any less terrible. If you have to deal with an endless stream of bullshit then there are bigger issues other then just being bad at managing money.

Either way it's not something I worry about because I have already decided I am never getting married. If I WAS though, whether or not a person was good with finances would not be a factor. The idea that a person with poor financial skills is lazy, incompetent, disorganized and so forth is just ignorant.

Speaking from personal experience I know at least 2 people that are married where one of them is terrible at finances. Those people are however, great at other things such as being a mother/cook, talented musician, very artistic and so on. Another example? My best friend of 20 years is horrible at opening his mail, he lets that shit stack up for a month but he's an awesome friend, a math genius and pretty damn funny. Does his laziness with mail/bills make him suck? Nope....at least his wife doesn't seem to think so considering they have been married almost 10 years now.

You can apply this to other area's in life as well. Just because you might suck at some things, doesn't mean you suck at everything.

I don't really enjoy debating topics with random people on message boards but goddamn sometimes the ignorance is just to strong for me to ignore.

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You don't seem to get it man, "good with finances" is a very relative term. That's why I further clarified my perception of such with examples. To me "good with finances" means someone that visits Mint.com every day to categorize their spending, is actively investing/saving money, and planning financially for the future. While I certainly don't require those skills in a "marriage candidate", at a minimum I need someone that can manage to pay bills on time, spend in a manner commensurate with her income, and doesn't throw money away--whether it be via the purchase of frivolous items or through penalties/interest. Let's call this person "decent with finances"; he/she is at least cognizant of spending, doesn't accrue credit card debt, and doesn't overdraw his/her account on a weekly basis.

Now the "shitty with finances wife" that's a great musician/mother/cook? Sorry, great dinners and her playing the cello every night won't offset the fact that she just blew $300 on a pair of pumps because "they were on sale from normally $700!"

To put it more in perspective I have a friend that's quite affluent. Not uber rich or anything, but wealthy enough to live in a big house in a nice neighborhood, send his kids to private school, and both he and his wife drive expensive cars. His wife grew up with a wealthy father who pretty much took care of everything, so needless to say she's "bad with finances". Now my friend knew this when he married her and handles all the bills/finances, but this doesn't change the fact that his wife has very little concept of "budget" or "cash flow". So inevitably they share bank accounts and credit cards, being married and all, but basically sees the credit card as something that has no limit, real or theoretical. Last month she spent $1000 on dog grooming for their two Labradoodles, 'cause she decided to get them both washed/cut once a week, and not only had no idea it would end up costing that much, but even when she did she didn't think it was a lot of money. My friend just sighed when he saw the CC statement that month. She also goes to play tennis regularly, and spends about $500 a month on new tennis skirts/balls/racquets because she forgets them at home. This is someone that doesn't even *handle* the finances. No matter how much he tries to explain things to her, it doesn't matter-- she simply can't relate because she's a 30+ year old woman that has never had to deal with any of those realities.

Being financially incompetent can have a systemically negative impact on your entire quality of life, and being a great mother/cook/musician/mathematician won't fix that.

My experience tells me , anytime I tried to reign in a woman's spending , said female would reign in the sex. Hot sex became a grudging dead fish flop once a week and not always.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

My friend just sighed when he saw the CC statement that month.

Being financially incompetent can have a systemically negative impact on your entire quality of life, and being a great mother/cook/musician/mathematician won't fix that.

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You are right but its not that black and white and should only be used as a part of the big picture.

But I think the quoted above part has an EQUAL share of guilt. Enablers are just as bad. Communication is the key. In most cases Communication needs to clearly underline the consequence of actions, often I see people who are not able to look forward and understand that every action has consequences some positive some negative.

IE "honey, if you keep spending frivolously, our retirement and our children education is in jeopardy. Do you think washing the mutts 4 times a month is worth that type of risk?"

Please do not confuse discussion of consequence with as a threat. You must be careful to avoid "honey, if you keep spending frivolously I am going to kick your bitch ass to the curb and work on that trophy wife I keep hearing about"

Chesire_sl said:

My experience tells me , anytime I tried to reign in a woman's spending , said female would reign in the sex. Hot sex became a grudging dead fish flop once a week and not always.

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Perhaps you did not do a great job of establishing buy in. You can't be "RAWR I am mad at you for being dumb with money, time to tighten the belt." It has to be "WE are not in a great position, if WE keep this up WE will end up out of our home, not able to take vacations, paying XYZ amounts in interest etc"

If she associates money directly with sex, that is not a girlfriend/wife that is a prostitute. Time to move on.

Nester_sl said:

You are right but its not that black and white and should only be used as a part of the big picture.

But I think the quoted above part has an EQUAL share of guilt. Enablers are just as bad. Communication is the key. In most cases Communication needs to clearly underline the consequence of actions, often I see people who are not able to look forward and understand that every action has consequences some positive some negative.

IE "honey, if you keep spending frivolously, our retirement and our children education is in jeopardy. Do you think washing the mutts 4 times a month is worth that type of risk?"

Please do not confuse discussion of consequence with as a threat. You must be careful to avoid "honey, if you keep spending frivolously I am going to kick your bitch ass to the curb and work on that trophy wife I keep hearing about"

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Nester, I am seriously envious of you because it seems like you have that fairy tale relationship, and this view that anything can be mended through "communication". If your wife wasn't an escaped Jahova's Witness I would say you're full of shit, but having had dated an ex-Mormon myself, I can possibly see where you're coming from since these girls have been "trained" to be doting stepford wives.

You're right, my friend is just as guilty as she-- he knew she couldn't handle money and he married her anyways. However, do you really think he hasn't communicated any of the above to her? She has never been poor. She has never had to struggle financially. She has never had to pay the bills. She has never had to worry about "limits". Explaining risks that she can't even remotely relate to are fruitless. In her mind she lives in a big house and drives a Mercedez SUV, despite having blown 1K on dog grooming, so beyond having never experienced poverty for historical reference, her "reality" simply doesn't jive with some "scary" future concept either. Does she no longer wash the dogs four times a month? Yeah, because she was explicitly told not to, not because she understands that $1000 is a lot to wash dogs. So next month she'll probably blow the same amount on throw pillows instead.

I'll be honest, if the worse I have to deal with is teaching her how to not be retarded with finances then I'm doing ok. Once we had our talk and i opened her eyes to how fucked her money really was she was more than happy to start solving the issue. It doesn't help her mom is a nutjob who has a horrible track record with jobs and money. So I can't just cut her from the cool kid club due to shitty credit without trying to help her. 99% of the time I handle the money issues anyway but I want her to learn instead of just being treated like a kid and handed an allowance every week.

Jx3_sl said:

I'll be honest, if the worse I have to deal with is teaching her how to not be retarded with finances then I'm doing ok. Once we had our talk and i opened her eyes to how fucked her money really was she was more than happy to start solving the issue. It doesn't help her mom is a nutjob who has a horrible track record with jobs and money. So I can't just cut her from the cool kid club due to shitty credit without trying to help her. 99% of the time I handle the money issues anyway but I want her to learn instead of just being treated like a kid and handed an allowance every week.

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Good luck with that dude. Finances are one of the largest % reasons for divorce. If she doesn't get it 100% together ASAP I'd proceed with extreme caution. Small stuff like an overdraft occasionally quickly turns into "Ok, what the fuck, are you an idiot? We've had this conversation TEN TIMES!!!!!"

Appreciate the advice and thats the reason I'm having this talk with her now before the marriage word even comes up.

This Crazily guy trolling? Money doesn't matter? Man do I wish that were true. It's one of the top 3 reasons people usually give when asked why they got divorced and it's a huge issue. You're smart for having the talk with her now.

Elurin_sl said:

For anyone that has been through one, or maybe knows a bunch of people that have, are there any kinds of preparations to make prior to bringing up the subject of divorce? Things like getting financial documents in order.

I'm going to have a conversation with the wife soon regarding our marriage, and if it does end up going that direction, I'd like to be ready prior.

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I was really surprised that the night we decided to get a divorce, one of the next things out of her mouth was "So, should you call friends or your dad or something to see if you can go stay with them?". She basically assumed I would be moving out that night. I just said "Why would I be leaving? We've been living together like roomates for months, no reason to change it, and besides, until we figure out whats happening with the house and everything, I don't think we need to rush."

But yeah, if you look up "Divorce for men advice" stuff like that, you will find a lot of advice, most of it super terrible advice unless you are going through a horrible divorce where you are each trying to fuck each other as hard as you can (stuff like filing a restraining order before you even break the news to her, and having the police come remove her from the house, shit like that). Still, you will get some idea's of what to do, how to respond to things, and what your options are.

The other thing to think about, divorce takes a while. I filed Dec 13, she's moved out, and I'm still probably looking at another month before we get our hearing. While technically not allowed, it might be a good idea to save up a stash of cash that no one knows about (if possible), as a "just in case the shit hits the fan" fund. If she locks out credit cards and drains the bank account, changes the locks on your door and files a restraining order (again, worst case, doesn't sound like like you are in this boat, but bitches be crazy), you could just be shit out of luck. With some cash you could at least get a hotel/whatever.

Anyway, I guess the short version is - If you think it can be amicable, don't stress it, talk it out. If you think she is going to go batshit crazy, prepare in advance.

I'm dating someone right now that went through a bankruptcy this year and lives paycheck-to-paycheck. I have to say that it really acts as a caution sign when ever I think about long term possibilities, especially ones in which our finances get merged.

Holy shit this thread is depressing.