Marriage and the Power of Divorce

elbas

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Edit: and even if it did approach it, how does it make sense to have a person sitting at home not developing their career for the 5-7 years it takes your kids to be in full time school? What are they gonna do after that? You hamstring their career and cost yourself hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars when you can't get them back to work later or they just get shitty jobs because they're 35 and no/little experience...

How is that a good plan? Put her to work and let the kids go to school, sheesh. Stay at home mom has absolutely nothing to do all day once they are in 1st grade.

From a child development standpoint, it is totally worth it to have a parent stay at home and focus on childcare. It avoids so many issues and can prevent a lot of behavioral problems. Parents should do what they can to make it happen if it's feasible. That may mean cutting back on vacations, new cars, etc. and living a more modest life, but the benefits to the child are worth it. But, of course, there is a significant financial cost. Not only do they lose out on the current earnings of the parent, their future earnings are typically diminished as they lose many years of work experience and may find it harder to get an equivalent job to the one they left. But even that is a worthy sacrifice for the child. If the parents are really trying to maximize their finances, they should avoid having children altogether. That will save a ton of money in direct costs related to raising a child and allow the parents to follow whatever financial path they want.

But one really important thing parents should realize is that if one stays home, the other is taking on the responsibility of financially supporting the family and financing their retirement. This is where the working parent often feels they get shafted in a divorce when the SAHP gets 1/2 the retirement, child support, and alimony. But that's part of the deal of agreeing to having one parent stay home. The SAHP is giving up their ability to support themselves in order to provide childcare. If the working parent doesn't like it, they should not agree to the other parent staying home. Or get divorced before they quit so that the financial split in the divorce is equitable since both people are working at that time and have similar assets.
 
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Jackie Treehorn

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Why would you think it’s so awful to introduce your kids to people they may only know temporarily? I know kids who were military brats and they were all pretty well adjusted if not strangely more advanced than many other kids from my estimation. Always seemed they were more worldly, outgoing, cultured, and often academically better for that matter, and they had a revolving door of teachers and friends.

Not discounting or saying it’s an easy life. Just curious.
 
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Kirun

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Why would you think it’s so awful to introduce your kids to people they may only know temporarily? I know kids who were military brats and they were all pretty well adjusted if not strangely more advanced than many other kids from my estimation. Always seemed they were more worldly, outgoing, cultured, and often academically better for that matter, and they had a revolving door of teachers and friends.

Not discounting or saying it’s an easy life. Just curious.
Teachers, friends, etc. are things that are going to move in and out of your life. Kids adjust to that pretty well. But, an aupair, nanny, etc. is taking a direct hand in "raising" a child - doing things for them they cannot do themselves. From a developmental standpoint, children/humans react to that a lot differently, especially in their "formative" years.
 
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Cad

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Teachers, friends, etc. are things that are going to move in and out of your life. Kids adjust to that pretty well. But, an aupair, nanny, etc. is taking a direct hand in "raising" a child - doing things for them they cannot do themselves. From a developmental standpoint, children/humans react to that a lot differently, especially in their "formative" years.
I'm curious how you think a teacher isn't taking a direct hand in raising a child, but an aupair is.
 
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Falstaff

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This conversation is pretty much always the same, but its also always interesting reading the varying opinions.

I wonder what the statistics are for people in this country who stayed in their hometowns and have extended family that are both willing and able to provide free childcare at the pleasure of newer parents.
When my wife and I started having children we were close to our entire extended family (except one of my brothers who lived in Texas). Still are for that matter.

After our first was born, my mother in law and my mom/dad rotated watching the kid 4 days a week. I was fortunate to be able to work from home on Friday's. Two years later when we had our second kid, my wife decided to quit her job and I had subsequently gotten a new one. So we were fortunate in that regard that we had family close and were able to take advantage of it, otherwise absolutely the majority of her salary as a teacher would have gone to child care for two kids.

It's still rough living on a single income depending on how much you make. Of course there are tons of other factors like where you live, etc. We certainly weren't some retarded Dave Ramsey putting cash in envelopes and that's all you get to spend for the week people, but we didn't spend like crazy idiots, bought a modest used card, didn't go on vacation more than once or twice in 6 years. Hell I still feel guilty about spending money on myself.

My kids are 8 and 6 now and just within the last two years we've finally climbed out from the first 4 years of debt caused by being a single income family, mostly because I've doubled my salary over the 8 years I've been in my current job.
 

Kirun

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I'm curious how you think a teacher isn't taking a direct hand in raising a child, but an aupair is.
A teacher is playing with a child after school? Making them afternoon snacks? Dressing them? Cleaning their rooms? Doing their laundry? Taking them to the park? To get ice cream? Taking care of all these things on school holidays when Mom and Dad are at work? And they are doing this over the course of potentially years and not just 9 months at a time before it's on to the next grade?

Clearly teachers are having a direct impact, but to the extent an aupair is?
 

Cad

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A teacher is playing with a child after school? Making them afternoon snacks? Dressing them? Cleaning their rooms? Doing their laundry? Taking them to the park? To get ice cream? Taking care of all these things on school holidays when Mom and Dad are at work? And they are doing this over the course of potentially years and not just 9 months at a time before it's on to the next grade?

Clearly teachers are having a direct impact, but to the extent an aupair is?
Aupairs only stay with you for a year unless you extend and then they get 2 years. All of ours only stayed 1 year except one of them, who stayed 2.

I don't think dressing them and getting them afternoon snacks is raising them. I think doing the things teachers do is a lot more like raising - teaching, disciplining, making sure they fit in socially. The aupairs are passing time and entertaining them mostly. Again I guess you're just not aware of what aupairs do or what parents do or what makes a difference to a kid since you don't have any, but you might want to trust those of us that do on these type of things.
 
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Cad

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"Trust the experts", right?
Well you might want to learn the basics of what parents do if you think you're going to instruct us on what we're doing wrong. So far, you seem to have an understanding based on TV and whatever TRP/MRA materials you've read about the "tradwife" role.
 
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Lendarios

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I do the original aupair.

Mother in law lives with us.
Is it annoying fuck yeah, DO WE ARGUE, YES.but she cooks for thr kid and myself cleans a bit and keeps the 1 year old away from danger while I work from home.

Cost me zero dollars but I pay in EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
 
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The_Black_Log Foler

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I'd 100% have children with my current GF. She's literally a professor of HDFS. If you could order a mom out of a catalogue, she'd be one of your top choices. We even froze embryos because she wanted/wants them and I'm still about 90% sure I don't. But, we did a "just in case" for that remaining 10%.

The issue on children lies with me. I'm not bringing a child into 2022 America. I will 100% end up dead or in jail with the current state of schools, politics, etc. and that isn't fair to put on a child who never asked to be brought into the world.

My girlfriend is a workaholic, so I get it. Why not make use of family instead of using the aupair?

What is terrible about introducing your children to random people that they build familiarity with for X period of time, until they quit, get fired, their visa expires, etc.? Gee...I wonder why family might be better suited for that job...
HDFS? Woman’s studies?
 

The_Black_Log Foler

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I do the original aupair.

Mother in law lives with us.
Is it annoying fuck yeah, DO WE ARGUE, YES.but she cooks for thr kid and myself cleans a bit and keeps the 1 year old away from danger while I work from home.

Cost me zero dollars but I pay in EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
No you’re just being a freeloading raftcoon. That shit is your culture.
 

Hoss

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TIL that upper class people having hired help to assist with raising the children is controversial.

The only controversial part is when they are incredulous and derisive that the lower classes don't do the same.
 

Cad

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The only controversial part is when they are incredulous and derisive that the lower classes don't do the same.
I don't think it's where you live. I think that's true almost anywhere. If you don't have free daycare, it usually doesn't make financial sense for both parents to work. But most people don't see that because you really have to crunch the numbers, it's not always apparent in the cost of the daycare itself. You have to add in the meals and gas and wardrobe and shit like that too. You get to where both need to be making pretty good money to come out ahead financially.
You stated in your post that it just flatly does not make sense financially for both parents to work, which is ridiculous. Even if your wife only makes like $80k or something it's still a net positive to have her work, probably a HUGE net positive when you consider the length of her career and the cumulative raises/promotions she'd miss out on by taking however many years off.

Somehow this turns into "lol Cad is shaming the poors" which I can certainly do if you want, but what I'm saying is even for middle income people, it does not make sense for the wife to quit and stay home, for a NUMBER of reasons.

First, wife may not want to stay home. Financial reasons be damned, she may not want to be financially dependent on you.

Second, you may not want wife to stay home. Financial reasons be damned, I don't want a person being financially dependent on me that I'm supposed to be in an equal relationship with.

Third, your wife (as stated above) will make a large quantity more money than childcare costs if she stays at work, especially considering cumulative raises, promotions, and work experience.

Fourth, having professional child care frees you up to do a lot of things you might not otherwise be able to - travel (with kids/aupair), have aupair meet you at events with the kids that you otherwise might have to skip or be late to if you had to pick them up yourself, have aupair conduct additional educational activities (read, math books, go to the park... ) a lot of these are basically babysitting tasks. Frees you up to do the "big" parenting tasks.. discipline, educational talks, attending big events, etc... having a helper is never a bad thing.

Fifth, aupairs are from other cultures... we've had some from Europe and some from Asia. The kids learned a bunch of new words, got to meet siblings and friends of the aupairs and go do aupair things with a ton of other kids and girls since the aupairs all get together... parents can do this too but this is a nice benefit.

Sixth, and maybe most importantly, you don't want the resentment of you spending all day at work and coming home to your "tradwife" who now resents you because you spent all day doing intellectually interesting things and she spent all day doing dishes, changing diapers, listening to screaming ass kids, and so on. You're not sharing that burden equally, so she will resent you. Similarly, she's not earning any money so when she spends money, you will resent her. In an ideal world, this wouldn't happen... but just read through the 2000+ pages of this thread to hear the dumb shit people argue about. Why would you want to put yourself through that? Just be equal, go to work. Your 3 year old will still love you later if you're not a shitbag.

You're trying to frame this as poor shaming, when what is really going on is y'all are trying to shame us for hiring nannies or aupairs or whatever. You didn't get any traction on that so you're pivoting to poor shaming. Pretty sad.
 
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Lendarios

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No you’re just being a freeloading raftcoon. That shit is your culture.
Can you contribute to the thread without the insults and actually providing advice or your experience?

Or is it insulting all you do in every single thread
 
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Gavinmad

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It mystifies me that Foler hasn't been permanently banned from the entire carebear subforum.
 
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