Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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Ahh so eurocentric racist 18th century outdated ideas.
lol

uh huh.

Tell me, do you think the Earth is flat, too?
Are you so retarded you think that Europe in the 18th century was under the impression that the Earth is flat? Seriously, get a fucking refund for that piece of shit education.

I dunno, why don't you try learning something for once to find out? Because studying people's garbage can tell you quite a bit about how people live in modern contexts. If you, as a socialist, can't see why understanding how people's consumption patterns influence their living styles and habits and vice versa, I'd say you're a pretty piss poor socialist.
Explain how studying people's garbage tells us whether or not implementing socialism in the United States would be a good idea.

Well so far, you guys have denied that LVT has been rejected by the mainstream of economists due to quantifiable proof that the value of goods is not solely determined by their labor input
1. Mainstream economics (and really economics generally) is a set of dogmatic beliefs and wholly unscientific.
2. Herbert Simon basically destroyed the field.
3. There is no credible way to disaggregate the value of labor and capital from the value of the combined good without relying on assumptions that are known to be false.

you've denied that data from archaeological contexts has any quantifiable metrics which could assist in understanding humans in modern contexts, lots of things.
That's not even remotely what I said.

Really anything that involves math or statistics that doesn't comport with your point of view, you deny has any relevance to the debate at all.
You haven't presented any such thing. I've had literally no opportunity to do so.

You did it on the last page in reply to Khalid. I dunno why you'd deny it now.
No I didn't, dipshit. But of course, you don't know what an anecdote is in the first place, so it's not surprising you'd get this wrong.
 

hodj

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Really, Mik, the fact that you don't realize human social interactions are a result of human interactions with their environments is pretty sad. Let's look at some modern day examples of this:

How humans dumping chemicals and waste into the air and water affect cell biology such as what effect they may have on cancers. Oh look, people in poor areas with more pollution tend to acquire diseases more often, such as cancer. Oh and you can plot those instances on linear functions and determine their correlation with levels of pollution in the environment. Look at how those social/cultural, biological and environmental issues all merge together into one big old juicy burger of science you deny is even possible.

Or the impact the desire for commodities like gold and diamonds in the West impact African societies. There's another good example.

Take a look at medical anthropology for me, and grow some capacity for understanding that your insular world view is the insular world view of a religious fanatic, denying science that doesn't comport with your vision of the "proper arrangement of society".

Also, let me help you out there:

Ethnocentric - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

having or based on the idea that your own group or culture is better or more important than others
So incredibly bigoted and racist. Really. Socialism is the "proper" arrangement of society. Kind of like how white men running plantations was the "proper" arrangement of society to....white plantation owners.
 

TheBeagle

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There's no way to apply scientific rigor to any kind of social or political systems on a large scale. The only thing you can do is examine the trends, look for whatever paired examples you can find (and they're not going to be well paired) and see where they lead. In general, soft sciences aren't science for the vast majority of claims that might actually be useful in the real world.
I agree with that.

And I also took an Ochem test today, second semester ochem, but still. I don't know how Hodj has the time to post in this thread as much as he does, lol. Entertaining though, keep it up bros.
 
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What the fuck does that have to do with anything we were talking about?
What DOESN'T human health have to do with social relations is a better question.
LOL

Ok. You've officially given up on rational argument here.

What, I'm just repeating your answer to everything.
Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

Dipshit can't even remember his own rhetoric about poor evil bosses being incompetent losers who can't make proper decisions and his appeal to that example as justification for his tautological assertion that ownership in our society isn't valid because he says so.
1. That rhetoric isn't an anecdote. You still don't know what that is.
2. You still don't know what tautologies are. You're using that word in a way that's completely wrong.
3. Myargumenthas nothing to do with my say so. I already presented the case for why ownership in the case of capital relations isn't ethically valid. I'm not going to repeat myself just because you don't feel like actually responding to those arguments.

Tautology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Your begging the question fallacy was the tautology. Dipshit.
The question wasn't begged because that "and it isn't" part was the conclusion of an argument you've (deliberately) omitted. All the logic for why it isn't carries with it other premises.
 
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Really, Mik, the fact that you don't realize human social interactions are a result of human interactions with their environments is pretty sad. Let's look at some modern day examples of this:

How humans dumping chemicals and waste into the air and water affect cell biology such as what effect they may have on cancers. Oh look, people in poor areas with more pollution tend to acquire diseases more often, such as cancer. Oh and you can plot those instances on linear functions and determine their correlation with levels of pollution in the environment. Look at how those social/cultural, biological and environmental issues all merge together into one big old juicy burger of science you deny is even possible.

Or the impact the desire for commodities like gold and diamonds in the West impact African societies. There's another good example.

Take a look at medical anthropology for me, and grow some capacity for understanding that your insular world view is the insular world view of a religious fanatic, denying science that doesn't comport with your vision of the "proper arrangement of society".

Also, let me help you out there:

Ethnocentric - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



So incredibly bigoted and racist. Really. Socialism is the "proper" arrangement of society. Kind of like how white men running plantations was the "proper" arrangement of society to....white plantation owners.
Literally none of this has anything to do with what we were talking about and frankly, a lot of it borders on the insane. Are you just trying to waste my time?
 

hodj

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lol

uh huh.

Are you so retarded you think that Europe in the 18th century was under the impression that the Earth is flat? Seriously, get a fucking refund for that piece of shit education.
Nope. Just dumb ass creationist religious whackos basically. Which is what you are.

Explain how studying people's garbage tells us whether or not implementing socialism in the United States would be a good idea.
First and foremost, I want to point out that Mikhail thinks the only valid science is that which confirms his point of view, and he literally says it here. He thinks that the only science which is valid is that which speaks to "proper arrangement of society" as defined by...Mikhail. The ethnocentrism and bias is so profound as to be almost overwhelming.

Now, Bill Rathje was a socialist. He was studying garbage in part to understand consumption patterns between neighborhoods based on their economic relations. I know this is already starting to go over your head but here, have a read

William L. Rathje: 1945-2012 | The College of Social Behavioral Sciences

In 1973, Rathje began the Garbage Project, which stemmed from an idea by a couple of his students.

The students collected trash from various parts of Tucson and correlated it with census data. Their observed results differed with their assumptions about what residents in specific areas would be expected to be consuming: higher-end products in wealthier areas, and more modest consumption in less-affluent parts of Tucson.

"The 'ah, ha' moment for Bill was that when he was studying Maya culture, nearly all of what was being excavated was what those people had thrown away," said Albert Bergesen, the head of the UA sociology department and a long-time friend. "He thought, why can't we use these techniques to learn about our own culture?"

Rathje mobilized a small, paid staff and a cohort of volunteer students to expand the project, complete with a tongue-in-cheek logo of a trash can emblazoned with the phrase "Le Proj?t du Garbage," and began searching for grant support.

"We developed the methodology to study contemporary garbage using archaeological methodology," said Wilson Hughes, the long-time field director for the Garbage Project. "There were no 'how to' books, so we developed what is now called garbology."

The word "garbology," originally a euphemism used to describe waste management, came to describe Rathje's new endeavor and is now included in the Oxford English Dictionary.

The fact that the Garbage Project was so new proved to be an initial stumbling block in finding operating grants. Many agencies either didn't understand the concept or said that it fell outside the scope of what qualified for funding.

Thompson said Rathje was also stung by criticism from some of his colleagues who felt his experiments in garbage didn't qualify as actual archaeological research.

Said Thompson, "I supported Bill from the beginning. The project had a good reputation in applied anthropology and there was real merit in what he was doing, but he had to face up to the problem that this wasn't an established field.

"My feeling was that if we kept him moving, then the funding would come. Bill brought rigor and methodology to the project that made it work in a very short period of time. In addition, he was able to develop support and camaraderie with students that was very important."

Rathje eventually landed a grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and working with the City of Tucson, he and his staff and students were able to survey homeowners about what they bought, and what and how much they threw away.

City garbage collectors then routed trash containers from the surveyed households to Rathje's lab near the UA football stadium where he and his students sorted, weighed, recorded and analyzed what they found.

They discovered gaps, often significant ones, in what people reported they used and discarded, compared to what actually was found.

Periods of economic stress, for instance, often spurred people to buy perishable goods in quantities to take advantage of price breaks. Frequently, however, much of their groceries - including expensive cuts of meat - spoiled before they could be eaten and ended up being thrown out.

Middle-class households generally wasted more than richer or poorer ones.

Also, households, they also found, consistently under-reported the amount of alcohol being consumed.

In 1987, Rathje turned his attention to the landfills themselves to find out what they contained and how materials behaved inside them. Using a piece of heavy equipment called a bucket auger, workers scooped out vertical shafts of garbage from landfills, first in Arizona and later across the United States.

Each heap of trash brought up was essentially a time capsule. Like an archaeological excavation of a bygone civilization, American garbage told a story of a culture that no longer existed.

Rathje's landfill excavations also revealed an astonishing lack of knowledge not only about what was in the country's waste streams, but the eventual fate of materials buried underground.

Conventional wisdom held that much of the trash in landfills would quickly decompose. Instead, organic materials, like food and lawn waste, were found mummified in the airless depths of sanitary landfills.

Items like hot dogs and lettuce that had been entombed for years looked as if they had just been recently thrown out. Decades-old newspapers were still intact and readable.

Construction materials, originally thought to be virtually non-existent in landfills, actually accounted for a significant portion of waste.

Rathje also ignited a controversy in the 1980s, at a time when concern over discarded plastics began to peak. When surveyed, Americans listed fast-food containers, polystyrene foam and disposable diapers as the three largest contributors of waste.

Garbage Project excavations at more than a dozen landfills around the U.S. showed that, combined, those three items actually made up only about three percent of landfill contents. Rathje theorized that people assumed litter accounted for a larger percentage of the total waste stream than it actually did.

During its 30-year run, the Garbage Project had an impact on fields beyond archaeology, including nutrition, diet and food loss, hazardous waste - including disposal of nuclear materials - and recycling, as well as landfill management. Funding also increased as the project grew, with grants coming from USDA, the Environmental Protection Agency and other federal agencies, as well as state and municipal grants in the U.S., Canada and Australia.

"The wide application of the Garbage Project methodology is what kept it going for those three decades," said Hughes. "We even got a grant from the Navy to study garbage generated by surface combat ships. That was fun - trash at sea."
Just because science doesn't exist to confirm or deny your views doesn't mean its useless. In fact this shows that large amounts of social behavior can be quantified directly and used to comprehend HOW human social interactions occur, in what context, and in what way.

But you don't see that because, well, you're a religious fanatic, not a scientist.

1. Mainstream economics (and really economics generally) is a set of dogmatic beliefs and wholly unscientific.
Right, but socialism, which you deny is quantifiable at all, is real science. Irony. It really does strike at the most opportune times.

2. Herbert Simon basically destroyed the field.
Notice how every field that doesn't comport with Mikhail's point of view is "destroyed" "not valid" "not applicable in this situation" etc?

Yeah. That's why he's a religious fanatic.

3. There is no credible way to disaggregate the value of labor and capital from the value of the combined good without relying on assumptions that are known to be false.
Thats funny. Paul Samuelson received a Nobel prize for doing just that. And was called one of the greatest thinkers in his field for it. But again, you write off any contradictory evidence. Because you practice religion, not science.

That's not even remotely what I said.
Yeah, it really was.

You haven't presented any such thing. I've had literally no opportunity to do so.
You've had plenty of opportunity. Its just that you know that Marx's concept for deriving value of products from value of labor is a simple rational equation of two values, and thus is overly simplified horseshit that describes nothing close to reality. So you're afraid to post that, because you know it'll get demolished.

No I didn't, dipshit.
There's no way to apply scientific rigor to any kind of social or political systems on a large scale.
Derp.
 

hodj

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Literally none of this has anything to do with what we were talking about and frankly, a lot of it borders on the insane. Are you just trying to waste my time?
Yup, here comes the insults and butthurt when he can't refute the argument.

Tsar bomba incoming, everyone get the popcorn ready.
 

Loser Araysar

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Mikhail in full blown denial mode now. We're about to see a category 9 Tsar Bomba any moment now. I wonder how many times he'll try to insult my intelligence. Which brings me to another point, Mikhail, you salty salty little butthurt faggot: You need to come up with better, more original insults. Otherwise you're just stale.
Tsar Bomba didnt come in categories, Copernicus.
 

Loser Araysar

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Just so nobody is tricked by this retard, here's what I actually said:

There's no way to apply scientific rigor to any kind of social or political systems on a large scale. The only thing you can do is examine the trends, look for whatever paired examples you can find (and they're not going to be well paired) and see where they lead. In general, soft sciences aren't science for the vast majority of claims that might actually be useful in the real world.

That comment was made in the context of a discussion about the proper arrangement of society (not a discussion about human interaction with the environment).
I agree with that
 

hodj

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I agree with that.

And I also took an Ochem test today, second semester ochem, but still. I don't know how Hodj has the time to post in this thread as much as he does, lol. Entertaining though, keep it up bros.
I dunno why, but I just get Ochem.

I'm betting the first two tests are easy because the second two are real doozies.

I do have to write a lab report now, as in tonight and tomorrow. Its due Monday but I wanna get a head start on the next section in O Chem and Calculus now that the tests are over.
 

hodj

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Tsar Bomba didnt come in categories, Copernicus.
I know, we're developing categories specifically to more accurately detail the degrees of anal trauma Mikhail is experiencing when his intellect doesn't match his ego.
 

Loser Araysar

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I know, we're developing categories specifically to more accurately detail the degrees of anal trauma Mikhail is experiencing when his intellect doesn't match his ego.
The only this categorizes is the ridiculous lengths you will go to be considered right. It reflects very poorly on you.

I just finished watching The IASIP episode "Flowers for Charlie", and Charlie in that episode is exactly like you
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Saying there us no way to apply scientific rigor to any political or societal system is ludicrous.

I reiterate, the experemt of Communism as a means of societal governance has failed repeatedly and only lead to immense human suffering.
 
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First and foremost, I want to point out that Mikhail thinks the only valid science is that which confirms his point of view, and he literally says it here.
I just want to point out that:

1. The question is posed in an open ended way (it could say that implementing socialism isn't useful).
2. My original statement only pertained to the actual discussion at hand (which had to do with the selection social and economic systems). Hodj is now deliberately trying to misrepresent that statement as "anthropology has nothing useful to say about anything." And he's doing so by deliberately cropping quotes.

Thats funny. Paul Samuelson received a Nobel prize for doing just that.
That's funny, because Nobel didn't actually set up a prize for economics (because it isn't science). They had to invent one after the fact to reward each other for new advancements in silly dogma.

Yeah, it really was.
If it were, you'd quote me.

You've had plenty of opportunity.
You haven't presented any such thing.
 

hodj

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The only this categorizes is the ridiculous lengths you will go to be considered right. It reflects very poorly on you.

I just finished watching The IASIP episode "Flowers for Charlie", and Charlie in that episode is exactly like you
Yeah I really love Charlie he's the shit.

Also lol at the rest of this post.

Araysar, you're the last brother on this board to be lecturing people about going to ridiculous lengths to be right.

Love ya man, but LOLOLOLOL.
 
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Saying there us no way to apply scientific rigor to any political or societal system is ludicrous.

I reiterate, the experemt of Communism as a means of societal governance has failed repeatedly and only lead to immense human suffering.
Well that immediately circles back to the issue of political taxonomy but unless and until you're willing to have a serious discussion about a rational scheme of identifying necessary and sufficient conditions for such a classification that doesn't rely on an appeal authority, tradition, or majority then I don't think there's anywhere to go with that.
 

hodj

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I just want to point out that:

1. The question is posed in an open ended way (it could say that implementing socialism isn't useful).
2. My original statement only pertained to the actual discussion at hand (which had to do with the selection social and economic systems). Hodj is now deliberately trying to misrepresent that statement as "anthropology has nothing useful to say about anything." And he's doing so by deliberately cropping quotes.

That's funny, because Nobel didn't actually set up a prize for economics (because it isn't science). They had to invent one after the fact to reward each other for new advancements in silly dogma.
Ahhhh look at all those denials. "The isn't a NObel prize for economics because it was set up after Nobel died!" Right well then you better get Paul Krugman on the phone and let him know his Nobel Prize isn't worth the paper its printed on ./giggle.

I mean, in the case of Samuelson, we're only talking about the man who made MITs economics department an internationally recognized institution. An Arch Keynesian no less. Funny how Mikhail will eat his own to prove his point. That's some desperation right there.

No one crops quotes to misrepresent anyone here but you, Mik. In fact it was a cropped quote of mine that set you off on your anecdote tangent that left you looking like a fucking joke in front of everyone again

If it were, you'd quote me.
I'm pretty sure I did just quote you. Like 700 times.
 

hodj

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Here's the guy Mikhail says isn't credible

Paul Anthony Samuelson: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

More than any other economist, Paul Samuelson raised the level of mathematical analysis in the profession. Until the late 1930s, when Samuelson started his stunning and steady stream of articles, economics was typically understood in terms of verbal explanations and diagrammatic models. Samuelson wrote his first published article, "A Note on the Measurement of Utility," as a twenty-one-year-old doctoral student at Harvard. He introduced the concept of "revealed preference" in a 1938 article. His goal was to be able to tell by observing a consumer's choices whether he or she was better off after a change in prices, and indeed, Samuelson determined the circumstances under which one could tell. The consumer revealed by choices his or her preferences-hence the term "revealed preferences."
Samuelson's magnum opus, which did more than any other single book to spread the mathematical revolution in economics, is Foundations of Economic Analysis. Based on his Harvard Ph.D. dissertation, this book shows how virtually all economic behavior can be understood as maximizing or minimizing subject to a constraint. John R. Hicks did something similar in his 1939 book, Value and Capital. But while Hicks relegated the math to appendixes, "Samuelson," wrote former Samuelson student Stanley Fischer, "flaunts his in the text."1 Samuelson's mathematical techniques brought a new rigor to economics. As fellow Nobel Prize winner Robert Lucas put it, "He'll take these incomprehensible verbal debates that go on and on and never end and just end them; formulate the issue in such a way that the question is answerable, and then get the answer."2

Samuelson is among the last generalists to be incredibly productive in a number of fields in economics. He has contributed fundamental insights in consumer theory and welfare economics, international trade, finance theory, capital theory, dynamics and general equilibrium, and macro-economics.

Swedish economist Bertil Ohlin had argued that international trade would tend to equalize the prices of factors of production. Trade between India and the United States, for example, would narrow wage-rate differentials between the two countries. Samuelson, using mathematical tools, showed the conditions under which the differentials would be driven to zero. The theorem he proved is called the factor price equalization theorem.

In finance theory, which he took up at age fifty, Samuelson did some of the initial work that showed that properly anticipated futures prices should fluctuate randomly. Samuelson also did pathbreaking work in capital theory, but his contributions are too complex to describe in just a few sentences.

Economists had long believed that there are goods that the private sector cannot provide because of the difficulty of charging those who benefit from them. National defense is one of the best examples of such a good. Samuelson, in a 1954 article, was the first to attempt a rigorous definition of a public good.

In macroeconomics Samuelson demonstrated how combining the accelerator theory of investment with the Keynesian income determination model explains the cyclical nature of business cycles. He also introduced the concept of the neoclassical synthesis-a synthesis of the old neoclassical microeconomics and the new (in the 1950s) Keynesian macroeconomics. According to Samuelson, government intervention via fiscal and monetary policies is required to achieve full employment. At full employment the market works well, except at providing public goods and handling problems of externalities. james tobin called the neoclassical synthesis one of Samuelson's greatest contributions to economics.

In Linear Programming and Economic Analysis Samuelson and coauthors Robert Dorfman and Robert Solow applied optimization techniques to price theory and growth theory, thereby integrating these previously segregated fields.

A prolific writer, Samuelson has averaged almost one technical paper a month for more than fifty years. Some 338 of his articles are contained in the five-volume Collected Scientific Papers (1966-1986). He also has revised his immensely popular textbook, Economics, nearly every three years since 1948; it has been translated into many languages. Samuelson once said, "Let those who will write the nation's laws if I can write its textbooks."

In 1970 Paul Samuelson became the first American to receive the Nobel Prize in economics. It was awarded "for the scientific work through which he has developed static and dynamic economic theory and actively contributed to raising the level of analysis in economic science."

Samuelson began teaching at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1940 at the age of twenty-six, becoming a full professor six years later. He remains there at the time of this writing (2006). In addition to being honored with the Nobel Prize, Samuelson also earned the John Bates Clark Award in 1947-awarded for the most outstanding work by an economist under age forty. He was president of the American Economic Association in 1961.

Samuelson was born in Gary, Indiana. At age sixteen he enrolled at the University of Chicago, where he studied under Frank Knight, Jacob Viner, and other greats, and alongside fellow budding economists Milton Friedman and George Stigler, who were then graduate students. Samuelson went on to do his graduate work at Harvard University.

Samuelson, like Friedman, had a regular column in Newsweek from 1966 to 1981. But unlike Friedman, he did not and does not have a passionate belief in free markets-or for that matter in government intervention in markets. His pleasure seemed to come from providing new proofs, demonstrating technical finesse, and turning a clever phrase.

Samuelson himself once said: "Once I asked my friend the statistician Harold Freeman, 'Harold, if the Devil came to you with the bargain that, in exchange for your immortal soul, he'd give you a brilliant theorem, would you do it?' 'No,' he replied, 'but I would for an inequality.' I like that answer."
BUT BUT ONLY MARXIST PROFESSORS ARE CREDIBLE ECONOMICS ISNT SCIENCE BECAUSE IF IT WERE THEN MARXISM WOULD BE WRONG AND I CANT HAVE THAT ABUH ABUH ABUH
 
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