hodj
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So basically, they don't exist. Thanks.
Yeah, no, I even linked some articles along with you showing it.
Thanks for supporting my side till you got bored trolling Mikhail though.
Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread
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Thanks for supporting my side till you got bored trolling Mikhail though.
Loser Araysar
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TheBeagle
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Bro, I agree with you that communism and all its past attempts are abject failures, no doubt about it. I'm just saying that your arguments aren't as air-tight as you like to think they are. Likewise, Team Commie's arguments aren't wholly without merit.
Godamnit why is arguing over the internet so much fun? I should be outside enjoying my weekend.
Bro,stop and read.
Dumar_sl said:
It's hard arguing with someone who doesn't even read or listen.Dumar_sl said:
hodj
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Anyway, Khalid, here's what Dumar's gonna say. He's gonna say that he would turn the means of production completely over to the workers.
When you ask him how to accomplish that, he won't have an answer. And that's why the whole thing falls apart. Because no one does.
How do you turn the means of production over to the workers, without usurping the ownership from the ruling class? And how do you usurp the ownership from the ruling class, without being a ruling class? By the mere fact that you have the power to remove that ownership, you are and have become the new ruling class. Then when your power is threatened, you fall into the trap of doing whatever you can to preserve it. Then, 100 years later, people like Dumar just get to pretend none of this happened, and really, you were just an evil capitalist in sheep's clothing all along.
Sure, Mao and others were telling themselves, "Hey, I'm just doing this for the PEOPLE. I'm just doing this to help preserve the Revolution, whose ultimate goal is the Marxist utopia. There may be suffering on the road, but the DESTINATION is so sweet." But how do you get there? How do you get from point A to point B without any leadership?
You put 20 sailors in a boat with no captain, will the ship sail? Maybe. Will it reach its intended destination? Almost certainly not. In fact it will probably go rogue, go pirate.
Without a captain, the communist boat doesn't even leave port. But the final goal of Communism is to throw the Captain over board.
So how do you make that work, while still arriving at the appropriate destination, without getting side lined, derailed, and driven to the island with the Cyclops who wants to eat you?
When you ask him how to accomplish that, he won't have an answer. And that's why the whole thing falls apart. Because no one does.
How do you turn the means of production over to the workers, without usurping the ownership from the ruling class? And how do you usurp the ownership from the ruling class, without being a ruling class? By the mere fact that you have the power to remove that ownership, you are and have become the new ruling class. Then when your power is threatened, you fall into the trap of doing whatever you can to preserve it. Then, 100 years later, people like Dumar just get to pretend none of this happened, and really, you were just an evil capitalist in sheep's clothing all along.
Sure, Mao and others were telling themselves, "Hey, I'm just doing this for the PEOPLE. I'm just doing this to help preserve the Revolution, whose ultimate goal is the Marxist utopia. There may be suffering on the road, but the DESTINATION is so sweet." But how do you get there? How do you get from point A to point B without any leadership?
You put 20 sailors in a boat with no captain, will the ship sail? Maybe. Will it reach its intended destination? Almost certainly not. In fact it will probably go rogue, go pirate.
Without a captain, the communist boat doesn't even leave port. But the final goal of Communism is to throw the Captain over board.
So how do you make that work, while still arriving at the appropriate destination, without getting side lined, derailed, and driven to the island with the Cyclops who wants to eat you?
hodj
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If they repeat the lie often enough, you will come to believe it.
And yeah, I really really have to study now. Like really bad.
hodj
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Well I've only asked it several times and pointed it out multiple times. In fact thats HOW we got to this argument. I asked why it is that each Communist revolution ends this way, and Mikhail's and Dumar's response was literally "Those weren't really communist revolutions"
That WAS their answer to this question, bro.
Literally.
hodj
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Like seriously, WHY are we debating whether Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, etc. were really communists or not is because Dumar and Mikhail's answer to that question was "They weren't really communists" to which I was like "Uh, yeah they were. Why are you both so retarded"
And here we are, 80 pages later and the same argument.
That, in fact, illustrates WHY they turn the argument into this. Its a distraction so they don't have to address that salient question, by completing shoving off all responsibility for those massacres and forced labor etc onto capitalists instead.
If you reread the thread, you'll find this to be the case.
And here we are, 80 pages later and the same argument.
That, in fact, illustrates WHY they turn the argument into this. Its a distraction so they don't have to address that salient question, by completing shoving off all responsibility for those massacres and forced labor etc onto capitalists instead.
If you reread the thread, you'll find this to be the case.
khalid
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Maybe, but I am asking if he has an answer to it. I am not interested in if Mao was a real communist (well, he was, but...). I am interested in how a true communist thinks it should go.
I also wont take a
1) Turn the means of production completely over to the workers
2) ?
3) Marx utopia
answer without arguing with it. Rather than right at the start assume Dumar can't answer it, lets see what his answer is. Hell, maybe he can convince me. I would love it if we could find a way to get to utopia.
hodj
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Here's my first post in the thread if you want to start from there.
And here was Mikhail's response
hodj
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So literally, right from the start, they invested in the "Well none of these are really examples of Communism" argument and they've been at it ever since.
They can't admit those tragedies are even RELATED to communism. Mikhail literally at one point said Mao was actually a Capitalist.
They can't admit those tragedies are even RELATED to communism. Mikhail literally at one point said Mao was actually a Capitalist.
It is a good question, and one that should be explored. But as you can see with my previous post, I have to constantly re-address and clean the words put in my mouth. It's exhausting, and yes, it does take away from the real, worthwhile discussions.
hodj
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I really disagree. I read Mikhail's posts, and he read mine. His response is clearly directly in response to material in my post. He directly addresses this line
Which is the crux of this debate, with this line
Their argument is literally that if a Marxist tries to make Marxist ideas work, and fails, that he wasn't a Marxist because he no longer met the necessary conditions for being a Marxist.
Its literally the same thing as saying Hitler wasn't a racist Fascist because, by failing to exterminate literally ALL the undesirables, he no longer meets the necessary conditions for being a racist Fascist.
Its a purile, insipid argument.
khalid
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That is really unfair to Hodj. Mikhail ALWAYS resorts to calling people retards, in every argument. He does it in the politics thread, the gun thread, this thread, every fucking thread. He seems almost incapable of having a disagreement without calling the other person a retard.
hodj
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hodj
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TheBeagle
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Ya but you allowed them to take you off on that tangent instead of ignoring that argument and sticking with that one simple question; why do the 'attempts' at communism always devolve into forced labor camps and wholesale slaughter? What are the underlying forces at work that keep communism from ever truly being realized as Marx envisioned?
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