Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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hodj

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For you to continually sit here and equate Marxian philosophy with Leninism,
Marxism-Leninism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marxism-Leninism is a political ideology combining the scientific socialist concepts theorized by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, collectively known as Marxism, with the theoretical expansions developed by Vladimir Lenin, collectively known as Leninism, which consist of anti-imperialism, democratic centralism, and the necessity of a vanguard party of class conscious cadres to coordinate the social revolution and the construction of socialism.[1]

Marxism-Leninism - definition of Marxism-Leninism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

An expanded form of Marxism that emphasizes Lenin's concept of imperialism as the final stage of capitalism and shifts the focus of struggle from developed to underdeveloped countries.
Herp derp the dictionary and wikipedia are equating Marx and Lenin unfairly too!

Your non historical perspective is biased and flawed and self reinforcing. You ignore contrarian points of view. You already have all the answers, just like Lumie. And just like Lumie, you won't share what the cure for cancer is.
 

Dumar_sl

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Which they are. They all came from the same font, they all sought the same end goal, they all ended in tragedy.
They fought and killed one another. When you talk about most of the policies of the USSR, you're not talking about Leninism. Leninism died with Lenin, with some remnants for Trotsky leftover.Stalin purged Trotsky and all the Bolsheviks and rebranded his policies under Marxism-Leninismper that quote from my previous post. How were these 'from the same front' and 'had the same goal'?

The answer is they weren't.
 

Loser Araysar

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They fought and killed one another. When you talk about most of the policies of the USSR, you're not talking about Leninism. Leninism died with Lenin, with some remnants for Trotsky leftover.Stalin purged Trotsky and all the Bolsheviks and rebranded his policies under Marxism-Leninismper that quote from my previous post. How were these 'from the same front' and 'had the same goal'?

The answer is they weren't.
this is true
 

hodj

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They fought and killed one another. When you talk about most of the policies of the USSR, you're not talking about Leninism. Leninism died with Lenin, with some remnants for Trotsky leftover.Stalin purged Trotsky and all the Bolsheviks and rebranded his policies under Marxism-Leninismper that quote from my previous post. How were these 'from the same front' and 'had the same goal'?

The answer is they weren't.
Rats tend to turn on each other when the ship is sinking.
 

hodj

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Of course, we can apply this argument elsewhere. Like with Rommel, who was a loyal Hitler follower throughout the war, but eventually was killed on the orders of either Hitler or Goering.

So I guess by Dumar's logic, since Hitler ordered the death of Rommel, Hitler wasn't really a Nazi either.
 

Dumar_sl

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Rats tend to turn on each other when the ship is sinking.
Sounds like a tea party answer.

Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Hilter, Obama, may as well lump them all together because we're too intellectually lazy to understand them. We'll call them all 'communists'.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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They fought and killed one another. When you talk about most of the policies of the USSR, you're not talking about Leninism. Leninism died with Lenin, with some remnants for Trotsky leftover.Stalin purged Trotsky and all the Bolsheviks and rebranded his policies under Marxism-Leninismper that quote from my previous post. How were these 'from the same front' and 'had the same goal'?

The answer is they weren't.
this is true. stalin is a faggot who stained the name of communism and created cronyism that rivaled tsar. actually, probably worse.
 

hodj

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Sounds like a tea party answer.

Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Hilter, Obama, may as well lump them all together because we're too intellectually lazy to understand them. We'll call them all 'communists'.
And Dumar concedes he has no real answer to simply applying his logic to groups that Communists despise.

Its okay to judge the modern Neo Nazis by the deaths in Auschwitz, but don't you dare judge Communists on their results.

Oh no.

Remember when we said you all had a case of special pleading fallacy here?

Yeah.
 

khalid

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I still would respectfully like Dumar to answer my question. What would he do differently? Surely he will concede that Mao, Lenin and Pol Pot started out wanting a communist utopia. They failed and failed spectacularly.

In specifics, if you were given the power due to a populist uprising that put you in charge, what would YOU do? Please, I am not interested in reading an entire textbook on the subject. Pretend I am simply a voting citizen and you are a candidate. Convince me.


Now you might be avoiding this because you think it is a trap. It is in a way I guess. It is always hard to come up with specifics on how YOUR revolution will work and none others did. However, surely this is a question that should be asked? Isn't this something important that you should answer?
 

hodj

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>America bombs a village in Afghanistan
>AMERICA IS CORRUPT EVIL WARMONGERING CAPITALISM IS EVIL NO BLOOD FOR OIL NO WAR FOR OIL

>Marxists intentionally starve an entire city to death
>COMMUNISM ISN'T AT FAULT ITS ALL THOSE EVIL DOUBLE TOP SECRET DECODER RING CAPITALISTS HIDING IN OUR MIDST THAT REALLY CAUSED THIS

Marxist double standards at their finest.
 

hodj

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It is always hard to come up with specifics on how YOUR revolution will work and none others did. However, surely this is a question that should be asked? Isn't this something important that you should answer?
Why bother thinking ahead? Marx said if you get the proles to revolt, that success is the inevitable outcome of the mass awakening of the social conscious of mankind, and if Marx said it, I believe it, so that settles it.

But Dumar, if Marx's teaching don't lead to mass slaughter, explain this quote by him

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism
I can think of somewhere else I've heard something like that before

 

Dumar_sl

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>America bombs a village in Afghanistan
>AMERICA IS CORRUPT EVIL WARMONGERING CAPITALISM IS EVIL NO BLOOD FOR OIL NO WAR FOR OIL

>Marxists intentionally starve an entire city to death
>COMMUNISM ISN'T AT FAULT ITS ALL THOSE EVIL DOUBLE TOP SECRET DECODER RING CAPITALISTS HIDING IN OUR MIDST THAT REALLY CAUSED THIS

Marxist double standards at their finest.
No, it's similar to blaming Adam Smith for current American legislative policy, which no, isn't close to his literature. You generalize about subjects you know nothing about, which leads to the absurdities we see today, such as labeling Obama a communist. Gonna focus on khalid and Beagle going forward per his above re-request.
 

hodj

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No, it's similar to blaming Adam Smith for current American legislative policy, which no, isn't close to his literature. You generalize about subjects you know nothing about, which leads to the absurdities we see today, such as labeling Obama a communist. Gonna focus on khalid and Beagle going forward per his above re-request.
Obama isn't a communist and I've never claimed him to be such.

Nice strawman you got there to cover your trail while you run away from the facts inconvenient to your world view.
 

hodj

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Also, is Dumar's "You generalize about things you know nothing about" the passive aggressive version of Mikhails "YOURE AN IDIOT WHO CAN NEVER COMPARE TO MY GENIUS YOU RETARD!"

I think it might be.
 

TheBeagle

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My question for Dumar would be, do you think humanity needs to go further on the socialism scale than the Scandinavian countries have gone?

It seems to me that they have it pretty dialed in as far as running a society goes with just the right mix of socialism and capitalism. The poorest and weakest are provided for, they don't make a national past time out of locking up their own citizens, they don't start wars, they don't have forced labor camps or bread lines, and they get to play with all the fun toys that capitalism has provided.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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Scandinavian countries suffer from high suicide rate. It also seems that their resources are running out and like rest of the Europe, Socialist parties are losing grips with the public because of the fiscal policies.

I've been saying this forever. Socialism is good.

Until money runs out.
 

hodj

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Ask yourself "Are there still people in Switzerland that have more than other people in Switzerland or elsewhere on Earth?"

If the answer to that question is "Yes" then the answer to your question is

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism
This history of history is class struggle. Until the entirety of planet Earth is 100% equal in all respects, then we must continue to press the Revolution forward, Comrade.

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren't only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General.

Some things about living still weren't quite right, though. April for instance, still drove people crazy by not being springtime. And it was in that clammy month that the H-G men took George and Hazel Bergeron's fourteen-year-old son, Harrison, away.

It was tragic, all right, but George and Hazel couldn't think about it very hard. Hazel had a perfectly average intelligence, which meant she couldn't think about anything except in short bursts. And George, while his intelligence was way above normal, had a little mental handicap radio in his ear. He was required by law to wear it at all times. It was tuned to a government transmitter. Every twenty seconds or so, the transmitter would send out some sharp noise to keep people like George from taking unfair advantage of their brains.

George and Hazel were watching television. There were tears on Hazel's cheeks, but she'd forgotten for the moment what they were about.

On the television screen were ballerinas.

A buzzer sounded in George's head. His thoughts fled in panic, like bandits from a burglar alarm.

"That was a real pretty dance, that dance they just did," said Hazel.

"Huh" said George.

"That dance-it was nice," said Hazel.

"Yup," said George. He tried to think a little about the ballerinas. They weren't really very good-no better than anybody else would have been, anyway. They were burdened with sashweights and bags of birdshot, and their faces were masked, so that no one, seeing a free and graceful gesture or a pretty face, would feel like something the cat drug in. George was toying with the vague notion that maybe dancers shouldn't be handicapped. But he didn't get very far with it before another noise in his ear radio scattered his thoughts.

George winced. So did two out of the eight ballerinas.

Hazel saw him wince. Having no mental handicap herself, she had to ask George what the latest sound had been.

"Sounded like somebody hitting a milk bottle with a ball peen hammer," said George.

"I'd think it would be real interesting, hearing all the different sounds," said Hazel a little envious. "All the things they think up."

"Um," said George.

"Only, if I was Handicapper General, you know what I would do?" said Hazel. Hazel, as a matter of fact, bore a strong resemblance to the Handicapper General, a woman named Diana Moon Glampers. "If I was Diana Moon Glampers," said Hazel, "I'd have chimes on Sunday-just chimes. Kind of in honor of religion."

"I could think, if it was just chimes," said George.

"Well-maybe make 'em real loud," said Hazel. "I think I'd make a good Handicapper General."

"Good as anybody else," said George.

"Who knows better than I do what normal is?" said Hazel.

"Right," said George. He began to think glimmeringly about his abnormal son who was now in jail, about Harrison, but a twenty-one-gun salute in his head stopped that.

"Boy!" said Hazel, "that was a doozy, wasn't it?"

It was such a doozy that George was white and trembling, and tears stood on the rims of his red eyes. Two of of the eight ballerinas had collapsed to the studio floor, were holding their temples.

"All of a sudden you look so tired," said Hazel. "Why don't you stretch out on the sofa, so's you can rest your handicap bag on the pillows, honeybunch." She was referring to the forty-seven pounds of birdshot in a canvas bag, which was padlocked around George's neck. "Go on and rest the bag for a little while," she said. "I don't care if you're not equal to me for a while."

George weighed the bag with his hands. "I don't mind it," he said. "I don't notice it any more. It's just a part of me."

"You been so tired lately-kind of wore out," said Hazel. "If there was just some way we could make a little hole in the bottom of the bag, and just take out a few of them lead balls. Just a few."

"Two years in prison and two thousand dollars fine for every ball I took out," said George. "I don't call that a bargain."

"If you could just take a few out when you came home from work," said Hazel. "I mean-you don't compete with anybody around here. You just sit around."

"If I tried to get away with it," said George, "then other people'd get away with it-and pretty soon we'd be right back to the dark ages again, with everybody competing against everybody else. You wouldn't like that, would you?"

"I'd hate it," said Hazel.

"There you are," said George. The minute people start cheating on laws, what do you think happens to society?"

If Hazel hadn't been able to come up with an answer to this question, George couldn't have supplied one. A siren was going off in his head.

"Reckon it'd fall all apart," said Hazel.

"What would?" said George blankly.

"Society," said Hazel uncertainly. "Wasn't that what you just said?

"Who knows?" said George.

The television program was suddenly interrupted for a news bulletin. It wasn't clear at first as to what the bulletin was about, since the announcer, like all announcers, had a serious speech impediment. For about half a minute, and in a state of high excitement, the announcer tried to say, "Ladies and Gentlemen."

He finally gave up, handed the bulletin to a ballerina to read.

"That's all right-" Hazel said of the announcer, "he tried. That's the big thing. He tried to do the best he could with what God gave him. He should get a nice raise for trying so hard."

"Ladies and Gentlemen," said the ballerina, reading the bulletin. She must have been extraordinarily beautiful, because the mask she wore was hideous. And it was easy to see that she was the strongest and most graceful of all the dancers, for her handicap bags were as big as those worn by two-hundred pound men.

And she had to apologize at once for her voice, which was a very unfair voice for a woman to use. Her voice was a warm, luminous, timeless melody. "Excuse me-" she said, and she began again, making her voice absolutely uncompetitive.

"Harrison Bergeron, age fourteen," she said in a grackle squawk, "has just escaped from jail, where he was held on suspicion of plotting to overthrow the government. He is a genius and an athlete, is under-handicapped, and should be regarded as extremely dangerous."

A police photograph of Harrison Bergeron was flashed on the screen-upside down, then sideways, upside down again, then right side up. The picture showed the full length of Harrison against a background calibrated in feet and inches. He was exactly seven feet tall.

The rest of Harrison's appearance was Halloween and hardware. Nobody had ever born heavier handicaps. He had outgrown hindrances faster than the H-G men could think them up. Instead of a little ear radio for a mental handicap, he wore a tremendous pair of earphones, and spectacles with thick wavy lenses. The spectacles were intended to make him not only half blind, but to give him whanging headaches besides.

Scrap metal was hung all over him. Ordinarily, there was a certain symmetry, a military neatness to the handicaps issued to strong people, but Harrison looked like a walking junkyard. In the race of life, Harrison carried three hundred pounds.

And to offset his good looks, the H-G men required that he wear at all times a red rubber ball for a nose, keep his eyebrows shaved off, and cover his even white teeth with black caps at snaggle-tooth random.

"If you see this boy," said the ballerina, "do not - I repeat, do not - try to reason with him."

There was the shriek of a door being torn from its hinges.

Screams and barking cries of consternation came from the television set. The photograph of Harrison Bergeron on the screen jumped again and again, as though dancing to the tune of an earthquake.

George Bergeron correctly identified the earthquake, and well he might have - for many was the time his own home had danced to the same crashing tune. "My God-" said George, "that must be Harrison!"

The realization was blasted from his mind instantly by the sound of an automobile collision in his head.

When George could open his eyes again, the photograph of Harrison was gone. A living, breathing Harrison filled the screen.

Clanking, clownish, and huge, Harrison stood - in the center of the studio. The knob of the uprooted studio door was still in his hand. Ballerinas, technicians, musicians, and announcers cowered on their knees before him, expecting to die.

"I am the Emperor!" cried Harrison. "Do you hear? I am the Emperor! Everybody must do what I say at once!" He stamped his foot and the studio shook.

"Even as I stand here" he bellowed, "crippled, hobbled, sickened - I am a greater ruler than any man who ever lived! Now watch me become what I can become!"

Harrison tore the straps of his handicap harness like wet tissue paper, tore straps guaranteed to support five thousand pounds.

Harrison's scrap-iron handicaps crashed to the floor.

Harrison thrust his thumbs under the bar of the padlock that secured his head harness. The bar snapped like celery. Harrison smashed his headphones and spectacles against the wall.

He flung away his rubber-ball nose, revealed a man that would have awed Thor, the god of thunder.

"I shall now select my Empress!" he said, looking down on the cowering people. "Let the first woman who dares rise to her feet claim her mate and her throne!"

A moment passed, and then a ballerina arose, swaying like a willow.

Harrison plucked the mental handicap from her ear, snapped off her physical handicaps with marvelous delicacy. Last of all he removed her mask.

She was blindingly beautiful.

"Now-" said Harrison, taking her hand, "shall we show the people the meaning of the word dance? Music!" he commanded.

The musicians scrambled back into their chairs, and Harrison stripped them of their handicaps, too. "Play your best," he told them, "and I'll make you barons and dukes and earls."

The music began. It was normal at first-cheap, silly, false. But Harrison snatched two musicians from their chairs, waved them like batons as he sang the music as he wanted it played. He slammed them back into their chairs.

The music began again and was much improved.

Harrison and his Empress merely listened to the music for a while-listened gravely, as though synchronizing their heartbeats with it.

They shifted their weights to their toes.

Harrison placed his big hands on the girls tiny waist, letting her sense the weightlessness that would soon be hers.

And then, in an explosion of joy and grace, into the air they sprang!

Not only were the laws of the land abandoned, but the law of gravity and the laws of motion as well.

They reeled, whirled, swiveled, flounced, capered, gamboled, and spun.

They leaped like deer on the moon.

The studio ceiling was thirty feet high, but each leap brought the dancers nearer to it.

It became their obvious intention to kiss the ceiling. They kissed it.

And then, neutraling gravity with love and pure will, they remained suspended in air inches below the ceiling, and they kissed each other for a long, long time.

It was then that Diana Moon Glampers, the Handicapper General, came into the studio with a double-barreled ten-gauge shotgun. She fired twice, and the Emperor and the Empress were dead before they hit the floor.

Diana Moon Glampers loaded the gun again. She aimed it at the musicians and told them they had ten seconds to get their handicaps back on.

It was then that the Bergerons' television tube burned out.

Hazel turned to comment about the blackout to George. But George had gone out into the kitchen for a can of beer.

George came back in with the beer, paused while a handicap signal shook him up. And then he sat down again. "You been crying" he said to Hazel.

"Yup," she said.

"What about?" he said.

"I forget," she said. "Something real sad on television."

"What was it?" he said.

"It's all kind of mixed up in my mind," said Hazel.

"Forget sad things," said George.

"I always do," said Hazel.

"That's my girl," said George. He winced. There was the sound of a rivetting gun in his head.

"Gee - I could tell that one was a doozy," said Hazel.

"You can say that again," said George.

"Gee-" said Hazel, "I could tell that one was a doozy."
 

TheBeagle

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Scandinavian countries suffer from high suicide rate. It also seems that their resources are running out and like rest of the Europe, Socialist parties are losing grips with the public because of the fiscal policies.

I've been saying this forever. Socialism is good.

Until money runs out.
Seasonal Affected Disorder is a real thing.
 
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