Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,710
2,408
Druids were situationally OP and not able to CH chain, ok of course. But being brought in for patch heals and keeping a charmed sonic bat for instance owned for the people who actually played after max in the group setting.

The real guilds that win know this and raise armies instead of logging out with preraid BIS until others catch up at their own speed. "There's nothing to do", oh please. This game and classic genre is lost on those types.

Consider how plane of sky got cleared in the first week of it opening on Green 99? ST and DMO power leveled a fuck load of mages and farmed the 49 air pet mats. We needed druids to get them to at least 20 in time. Then there was doing reclaim energy pet power leveling using 49 mages, I did many stints of this in the CT gator alley.

The normie players didn't have a concept of anything like this and howled to the GMs to make us share sisters of the spire with them not putting in any kind of real work like we did. I was assured many times we would not clear plane of sky, had all kinds of math linked at me and "common sense checks" spit at me.....

This was all from supposed "20 year masters" of the game. They didn't have one single group of mages AoE dpsing MM with max level enchanters holding it in place. They didn't schedule any 49 research mats "raids". They simply said it was a solved game, that "losers" like me "make shit up to try to sound smart about the solved game"....

I don't think Verant or anyone planned for such a thing to be possible or intended, but that's the magic of EQ man.

The people who didn't (and at this point I am convinced CANT) think of these things or put in that kind of effort always try to say the game is basically 2 buttons, auto follow and faceroll... or say it's dated and solved then cry about neckbearding or w.e... always a laugh for me
Yeah man

That’s definitely the “magic” of EQ that 10 year old me fell in love with for sure
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,144
8,587
What, you mean you don't think peak gaming is finding exploits in poorly designed content and then mocking other people who didn't think of it first?

When did this board becomes a bunch of fucking casuals?

Yeah man

That’s definitely the “magic” of EQ that 10 year old me fell in love with for sure

See, this is the problem here.

You can build this beautiful, engaging, wonderful world. You can perfectly place every rock and tree with love and intent. You can make sure every spell, line of dialogue, and every quest are true to the spirit of the thing you're created. But at some point you've gotta let people in, and people bring with them every flaw that exists in the real world. Greed, narcissism, violence, cruelty, etc etc etc forever.

Nirgon didn't have fun doing whatever the fuck he described above. It wasn't about fun, it was in his own words, hard work. It was about being top-ape. Part of that is carving out boundaries, defending them, and denying resources to bottom-ape. Even the smallest men on some level need kingdoms and by building a world like this you give people another way to have one. You've created a world where some men will use whatever means necessary to deny resources from others, even if it doesn't actually bring them any joy. The enjoyment is the denial itself, and it's primal and unavoidable. His post is dripping with it.

Instances are just a way to limit the impacts of this behaviour. If they aren't utilized the outcome is inevitable. Nirgons will always exist.

Shaun talks about Eth'Ur as being a 'third place', which I think is commendable and I so hope the team succeeds. I own restaurants and think about this concept a lot. The days of the pub and the church are fading, and men need some version of those things. I just hope the people who are circumstantially able to make it their second place cannot rob people from making it their third place.
 
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Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,730
17,570
See, this is the problem here.

You can build this beautiful, engaging, wonderful world. You can perfectly place every rock and tree with love and intent. You can make sure every spell, line of dialogue, and every quest are true to the spirit of the thing you're created. But at some point you've gotta let people in, and people bring with them every flaw that exists in the real world. Greed, narcissism, violence, cruelty, etc etc etc forever.

Nirgon didn't have fun doing whatever the fuck he described above. It wasn't about fun, it was in his own words, hard work. It was about being top-ape. Part of that is carving out boundaries, defending them, and denying resources to bottom-ape. Even the smallest men on some level need kingdoms and by building a world like this you give people another way to have one. You've created a world where some men will use whatever means necessary to deny resources from others, even if it doesn't actually bring them any joy. The enjoyment is the denial itself, and it's primal and unavoidable. His post is dripping with it.

Instances are just a way to limit the impacts of this behaviour. If they aren't utilized the outcome is inevitable. Nirgons will always exist.

Shaun talks about Eth'Ur as being a 'third place', which I think is commendable and I so hope the team succeeds. I own restaurants and think about this concept a lot. The days of the pub and the church are fading, and men need some version of those things. I just hope the people who are circumstantially able to make it their second place cannot rob people from making it their third place.
Yeah, this is actually a really sharp observation and honestly, one of the few takes that cuts through all the "old-school purity" noise. You can handcraft the most immersive, soulful world imaginable, but the second you open the doors, it's the players who will set the tone. The fantasy always collides with human nature. All the ugly, predictable stuff that MMOs have been dealing with since Ultima Online.

And you're absolutely right about that "top-ape" behavior. That instinct to hoard, control, and deny is not always just a byproduct of bad design, it's the core loop of human interaction once scarcity is introduced. A lot of what people call "emergent gameplay" is just digital power-tripping with a chat box attached.

The part that makes me laugh though is when designers act like they can somehow code around it. Like, no - you're not going to out-design primate psychology with a few clever systems and a campfire XP buff.

And that's fine, honestly. Just be honest about it. Don't romanticize human nature as "community-building." Sometimes it's just digital Darwinism wearing an elf costume.

Shawn was lead designer for EQ when LDoN came out and brought instancing to EQ. So, there is precedent for wanting to go into that direction.
 
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Sythrak

Vyemm Raider
465
1,162
Picks and raid instances were some of the best things that happened to EQ and I wouldn't have played as long as I had without it. I don't know what these guys really have planned for end game but if I gotta poopsock with 200 other people I'm prob out.
 

Nirgon

Log Wizard
18,439
29,573
Behold the future of Monsters & Memories endgame content if there is no instancing.

Or make sure there's a good enough number of memorable monsters on sufficiently randomized timers for the people like this to have a shot at a few per week (aka not just 2 dragons 2 gods to hold down), twinking is fun for the less dedicated, and hard group content exists for the in between.

Sometimes I think the that's where the worry is, the "in between" player who is try hard but also doesn't quite have the time. The solution for that is very hard group content (quest chains even) with appropriate rewards.

It's either that or the entire endgame is doing your weekly lockout raid, and we are right on track to making a "less good WoW" again.


PS: Guild efforts are fun, I wouldn't reduce them to work like a desk job
 
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Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,710
2,408
I thought they were planning on end game being more group oriented and not poopoo raids which is actually super boring content and that is why people have to invent top ape gameplay to make it “fun”
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,730
17,570
Something I'd really like to see an MMO try is a system that blends open-world and instanced raid bosses. Think Nagafen, Venril Sathir, Trakanon, etc. - classic FFA overworld mobs on seven-day timers. If you'e part of the raid group that kills one, you get a lockout.

To make these overworld versions meaningful, they could have increased drop rates. Maybe 10x the normal chance for their rare loot tables (exact numbers could be tuned, obviously). Alongside those, add instanced versions of the same bosses (similar to Agents of Change on TLPs) with normal drop rates, but sharing the same seven-day lockout.

You could even experiment with loot quantity instead of just rarity, or a mix of both. The goal isn't to eliminate competition, but to make it purposeful. No-life guilds still get that open-world adrenaline rush and prestige, while everyone else gets a consistent way to engage with content without sacrificing their entire weekend to a spawn timer.

I think that approach would strengthen the game's long-term health. It keeps the thrill of world-first races and server rivalries alive, but it also ensures the broader playerbase doesn't burn out or disengage. It would encourage both aspiration and accessibility, the two things MMOs constantly struggle to balance.
 
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Nirgon

Log Wizard
18,439
29,573
I thought they were planning on end game being more group oriented and not poopoo raids which is actually super boring content and that is why people have to invent top ape gameplay to make it “fun”

Without instances, there will be top aping.. so what can you do?

One sign your content isn't done well is a huge number of people dog piling the spawn point of some fairly trivial mob that drops some extremely good item

Adjust difficulty to ward off face rollers, encourage player skill development and make the reward appropriate for success

I think the bone construct they had was in the right direction

Algolon was also good like this in WoW, so was reducing raid sizes to 25

It makes for good user created content and attention to the game too, people like watching videos of others doing bad ass things -- free advertising for the game tbh
 

...

Goonsquad Officer
7,641
17,859
Something I'd really like to see an MMO try is a system that blends open-world and instanced raid bosses. Think Nagafen, Venril Sathir, Trakanon, etc. - classic FFA overworld mobs on seven-day timers. If you'e part of the raid group that kills one, you get a lockout.

To make these overworld versions meaningful, they could have increased drop rates. Maybe 10x the normal chance for their rare loot tables (exact numbers could be tuned, obviously). Alongside those, add instanced versions of the same bosses (similar to Agents of Change on TLPs) with normal drop rates, but sharing the same seven-day lockout.

You could even experiment with loot quantity instead of just rarity, or a mix of both. The goal isn't to eliminate competition, but to make it purposeful. No-life guilds still get that open-world adrenaline rush and prestige, while everyone else gets a consistent way to engage with content without sacrificing their entire weekend to a spawn timer.

I think that approach would strengthen the game's long-term health. It keeps the thrill of world-first races and server rivalries alive, but it also ensures the broader playerbase doesn't burn out or disengage. It would encourage both aspiration and accessibility, the two things MMOs constantly struggle to balance.
Dalaya and shards of dalaya (emulated eq server with wacky amounts of custom content) had treasure maps you could have drop. You take them to the zone they map, click it to get tracking like indicators of where to go. Get to the spot and dig, spawn critters, dig, spawn till boss wave. Boss wave has a chest with raid tier quality loot.

It was a means of gear nobody could cock block and you could do on off nights. It was pretty great.

And the newer iteration, dalaya (not shards of dalaya) in the last six months or so they made some changes to some raid zones. I quit before this so my details may be off, but I think some zones now have a 24 hour respawn, but individuals are locked out of fighting them more than once every week or so. I don't know the results of this... but it's another example of hybrid open world/ spawnable content. Not quite instance, but harder to cockblock.
 
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