Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Nirgon

Log Wizard
18,597
29,857
Keep in mind too that p99 has like 700 concurrent players. Now imagine the spawn competition if concurrent was quadruple that.

That’s a lot of dragons you’d need.

Okay true but we can also make the dragons (or other targets) not die so fast or not be instantly/easily engaged and rushed down via CH chain and melee blob. This is a good direction of thinking and discussion.

Velious is when this started to get closer in the right direction, even when pre-solved on P99. Keep going in that direction and adjust using that same prior knowledge.
 

Pharone

Trakanon Raider
1,394
1,266
In all honesty, all I want out of M&M is a game that my brother and I can play together for a couple decades with out having to be twitch gamers smashing a dozen different buttons at the right time and dancing in and out of puddles. We're too old for the Dance Dance Revolution style of MMORPGs. He's 58 and I'm 52. We played EQ for over two decades. We just want another EQ to play that doesn't involve DBG.

I want a game that is easy to get in to, difficult to master, and easy to play a few times a week for a couple hours here and there. And, for us, that means a game that we can play as a DUO and not have to sit around LFG or bowing to the schedule of a raid guild. We're too old to take on a new fucking job (aka raid guild) just to enjoy a game.

That's what I am hoping that M&M becomes. It's selfish, but it's what I want.

In a perfect world, we will be able to play 2 characters in a small group and be able to eventually accomplish everything the game has to offer. No raid guilds. No raid schedules. No creating spreadsheets to figure out optimum builds. No non-fun shit. It's a game. We want to have fun.
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,164
8,599
Okay true but we can also make the dragons (or other targets) not die so fast or not be instantly/easily engaged and rushed down via CH chain and melee blob. This is a good direction of thinking and discussion.

Velious is when this started to get closer in the right direction, even when pre-solved on P99. Keep going in that direction and adjust using that same prior knowledge.

But the best way to solve that issue is placing the highest value targets deep within raid ZONES, and now you're gating entire zones behind poopsock batphone culture. Or you give dragons abilities that are like 'death touch the 35th player within x distance' which I can tell you I'd grief the SHIT out of. Or you raid-lock encounters based on first engagement... in which case why aren't you instancing?

I dunno man I just haven't heard a good argument on how to solve this without guild-locked 'instances'.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,164
8,599
No raid guilds. No raid schedules. No creating spreadsheets to figure out optimum builds. No non-fun shit. It's a game. We want to have fun.

Let's not forget that a significant number of people, including me, find this fun. Just because you don't does not invalidate that people do.

I like having a club with scheduled meetings and rules to follow. I like getting good at my hobby. I do not see 9 hours a week of scheduled commitment as a second job.
 
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bolok

Trakanon Raider
1,273
707
The Magic Resistance combat trait is going to be a must-have for me. Being able to pop it and clear blind/fear is amazing, the added magic resistance is just a bonus.
It’s gonna take some other killer options to not choose that one by default.
 
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Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,785
17,636
Okay true but we can also make the dragons (or other targets) not die so fast or not be instantly/easily engaged and rushed down via CH chain and melee blob. This is a good direction of thinking and discussion.

Velious is when this started to get closer in the right direction, even when pre-solved on P99. Keep going in that direction and adjust using that same prior knowledge.
This is one of those ideas that sounds good in theory and completely collapses in execution. You're not actually "solving" the problem of CH chains and melee blobs; you're just dragging the fight out longer while keeping the same underlying design issues intact.

If anything, it makes the encounter less interesting because now you've doubled the downtime without adding any meaningful player agency. Making mobs tankier is just the illusion of challenge through attrition - there's no depth there. Players don't suddenly start coordinating better because a boss has ten million HP; they just stare at cooldowns for longer and pray the clerics don't fall asleep.

Velious worked then because it was the first time people were seeing that scale of encounter. It had spectacle, novelty, and technical limits that forced strategy. That's not the same as good mechanical design, it's just what we tolerated before we knew better.

If you want to fix "blob rush" gameplay, you have to change incentives, not stats. Add dynamic mechanics that punish zerging, create meaningful positioning, add debuff interactions that reward small coordinated groups over raw numbers. Otherwise, you're not evolving the genre, you're just polishing the same 25-year-old rock and calling it granite.
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,956
3,442
Call me crazy, but I can't help but think that these issues that EQ classic style servers have been demonstrating for all these years won't be repeated exactly as they existed in EQ. I would be shocked if the MnM team doesn't have some solutions lined up for this and just plan to dump raid mobs in on 72 hour respawns and call it good.

Plenty of ways to design around this and the assumption that this is going to be repeated 1 for 1 seems silly. More targets, ramping difficulty and rewards to incentivise bringing a real raid force instead of just enough, significantly more stratification to the raid game without resets so that raiders naturally spread on a curve over time according to their capabilities, which is how early EQ actually worked largely... Plenty of guilds happily raiding 2-3 expansions back, just requires not hard resetting gear every new tire added. Probably tons of clever stuff I'm not thinking of. These are solvable problems.

I'm sure they'll have their own problems, I just doubt they copy/paste the problems from p99 for example.
 

Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,735
2,445
Is anyone here not going to play this? Tell us why?
Prob not, have a young family and a busy job.

Played a shit ton of EQ in High School + College but nowadays 3-4+ hour game sessions just start to feel like a waste at this point in my life I look back and wish I’d worked out or done something else more productive. I see no glory in “outcompeting” turbotards for pixels. I’ve skipped the last two playtests due to work/life stuff.

If the game gets good reviews and ends up having a small group focused endgame and minimal poopsocking I might pick it up and play casually though.
 

Pasteton

Vyemm Raider
3,033
2,223
I’ve been in closed for a while now, am almost 60, don’t want to spoil too much but just to clarify some issues being raised here -

- instancing isn’t happening. Unless nick has a stroke, this is something these guys are so against I just can’t imagine them changing their minds on this. so anyone planning around big raid instances just for your guild will be disappointed . This may change after release of course if the game becomes really popular and there’s an uproar, but it definitely will not happen at release and won’t happen as long as the game stays really small/ niche.

- this is absolutely a game to chill play while grinding mobs and chatting with people and watching tv or working etc . There will be some skill/intense moments but that is not the norm. So don’t expect that. Having said that, some of the most fun is coming up with creative /unexpected ways to handle tough situations and usually these will get fixed at some point and could be considered an ‘exploit’ - but this is honestly some of the fun of games like this.

- the fun of this game is very much based on how much of it is a mystery and I think that is what the devs are particularly worried about as far as alpha leaks. I have found some shit that I am nearly positive literally no one else has but I cant post about or ask anything because it’s not allowed and the devs give you zero hints as to whether you’re onto something big like some hidden epic quest or you stumbled on an incomplete / broken quest and just getting a brick wall. Can be frustrating, but these guys are all about the discovery and within a few months a lot of that will be gone so I highly recommend playing this right at release if you are going to play it. There is an absolute metric fuckton of hidden ‘things’ in this game, from super sneaky quests, named that spawn only in certain conditions, and literal dungeons and zones that people can’t find but are 100% in the game.

- having said all that, of course people in the closed will have some advantage here BUT - the devs have emphasized multiple times that many, many things will change before release including where items will drop and even whole zones that are being held back until release, just to make sure that the closed testers can’t control everything

- content, content content- if you don’t like the gameplay loop of grinding mobs for slow gains then I’m not even sure what you are doing here. But if that is your thing ,then you have an absolute immense amount of options in front of you. Even at my level there is so, so much I haven’t done and my group is on all the fucking time. That’s why I’m not too worried about instancing especially at release. The zones are so massive and some so vertical , you never know when that path you didn’t take opens up to a whole new area or town, I’ve gone into some locations and thought just this part alone could support 10 high level groups - and that’s just a tiny fraction of one zone. Some of this may change if they slow respawn rates (which I bet they will) but it will still be content overload.

- expect raid stuff especially to be very janky at release. From what I’ve seen, ain’t no fucking way this will be fixed by next year lol. So very much an authentic 1999 eq experience

- almost everything being itemized feels so so good; getting that ultra rare drop that is awesome is a huge dopamine hit. Fucking sets it miles apart from pantheon in this regard (along with having around 50x more content than pantheon)
 
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Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
12,804
12,853
^

I never thought I'd like a game like this but here we are. It's really fun for the reasons Pasteton mentioned. The danger and exploration are really the selling points to me. I'm not looking anything up and just cruising around killing time and having some fun and some laughs. If you can go into this witout having to look EVERYTHING up on the wiki then you're likely going to have a good time.

All the classes seem to play really well off each other and there are many options to choose from. The only class I didn't like was because I didn't have a pocket healer.

I highly recommend anyone on the fence come check it out for the 10 day FREE/OPEN test on Saturday.

Don't worry though, the first train is free!
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,164
8,599
I’ve been in closed for a while now, am almost 60, don’t want to spoil too much but just to clarify some issues being raised here -

- instancing isn’t happening. Unless nick has a stroke, this is something these guys are so against I just can’t imagine them changing their minds on this. so anyone planning around big raid instances just for your guild will be disappointed . This may change after release of course if the game becomes really popular and there’s an uproar, but it definitely will not happen at release and won’t happen as long as the game stays really small/ niche.

If this is true the chances of this game attracting a large percentage of players on Quarm is near zero.
 

Nirgon

Log Wizard
18,597
29,857
This is one of those ideas that sounds good in theory and completely collapses in execution. You're not actually "solving" the problem of CH chains and melee blobs; you're just dragging the fight out longer while keeping the same underlying design issues intact.

If anything, it makes the encounter less interesting because now you've doubled the downtime without adding any meaningful player agency. Making mobs tankier is just the illusion of challenge through attrition - there's no depth there. Players don't suddenly start coordinating better because a boss has ten million HP; they just stare at cooldowns for longer and pray the clerics don't fall asleep.

Velious worked then because it was the first time people were seeing that scale of encounter. It had spectacle, novelty, and technical limits that forced strategy. That's not the same as good mechanical design, it's just what we tolerated before we knew better.

If you want to fix "blob rush" gameplay, you have to change incentives, not stats. Add dynamic mechanics that punish zerging, create meaningful positioning, add debuff interactions that reward small coordinated groups over raw numbers. Otherwise, you're not evolving the genre, you're just polishing the same 25-year-old rock and calling it granite.

Sontalak punishes zerging for sure. Once he starts low hp aggro ping ponging around to the unwashed scrubs without resist gear, it's a wrap. This has held up to be true as a good example and proves my point.

Gorenaire getting a CH off and owning fools without resist gear happens too.

With few other exceptions, what I see in EQ now is a solved game where most raid forces can rush a mob and easily kill it with a CH chain.

I think we are on the same page TBH.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,785
17,636
Sontalak punishes zerging for sure. Once he starts low hp aggro ping ponging around to the unwashed scrubs without resist gear, it's a wrap. This has held up to be true as a good example and proves my point.

Gorenaire getting a CH off and owning fools without resist gear happens too.

With few other exceptions, what I see in EQ now is a solved game where most raid forces can rush a mob and easily kill it with a CH chain.

I think we are on the same page TBH.
EQ raids today are solved, you're right. But that's the real takeaway: it's not that everything needs to be made harder or slower, it's that those encounters were never built for the meta-knowledge, efficiency, and population density we have now. The "risk" disappeared once the mystery did. Making bosses spongier or more chaotic doesn't fix that, it'll just highlight how shallow those systems really were when stripped of novelty.

So yeah, we're on the same page in spirit. The old chaos had charm, but pretending it was smart design is like saying your car was more exciting before brakes were invented. It's true in a way, but not for the reasons people think.
 

Hatorade

A nice asshole.
9,050
8,306
There is a much higher level area in that place too if you take the tunnel marked "W1" you can skip right to a pretty good camp spot.
Does it drop a good weapon for my monk?
bunsen is a beast waiting GIF by Nickelodeon