Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kirun

Kirun

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mkopec said:
Because I dont want to be at the mercy of others when it comes to playing and progressing in a mmo. I do group stuff when warranted, like dungeons and shit, but I prefer to play at my pace, whenever I want and what class is want so Im not at the mercy of shit like FOTM or just logging on for a hour or two and spending 1/2 that time getting in a group and setting up. There is plenty of mutiplayer to do with others, but why should I be at the mercy of others just to progress? Its dumb.
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One of the fundamental design problems that MMO developers still haven't fully solved is how to intelligently incentivize group play without making solo play feel like a punishment. Group content should offer clearly superior rewards - whether that's in the form of experience gain, loot, story progression, or world impact - but solo progression still needs to be "viable", even if it's slower or more limited in scope.

The issue that's plagued the genre - particularly post-WoW - is that most MMOs end up defaulting to extremes. On one end of the spectrum, you have games where solo play is just as efficient, if not more so, than grouping. In these cases, there's little reason to seek out others unless you're tackling high-end raid content, which often arrives well after a player has already established their core habits and routines. The result? Players don't form meaningful social bonds because they don't need to, and MMOs lose a key element of what once made them feel alive and community-driven.

On the other end, you have MMOs that make you almost entirely dependent on grouping for every inch of progress. This creates its own host of issues: long queue times/group wait lists, frustration when groups fail, burnout from always having to coordinate schedules, and completely alienating players who simply prefer a more self-paced or flexible playstyle.

The persistent failure to strike a balance between rewarding cooperation and respecting autonomy is one of the reasons why the genre has struggled to evolve meaningfully in the last two decades. What we need is a system where group play feels naturally rewarding, not artificially enforced. Let solo players take their time and grind out their goals, but give groups clear, tangible advantages: faster progression, access to exclusive mechanics, loot, or emergent gameplay that simply doesn't exist in a solo context.

Until designers move beyond this binary “solo vs. group” framework and start building systems that encourage fluid cooperation without punishing independence, MMOs will keep repeating the same shallow loop, just dressed up in different aesthetics and monetization models.
 
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Gravel

Gravel

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Sloan said:
I have quite a bit of friends that are waiting to go all in on EA but dont even want to play the closed alpha right now, let alone couple day open alpha seriously, but still log in for a few on their toons every open playtest
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Is this an option I'm unaware of?

As I've said, I'm early retired and have tons of free time I'd love to kill grinding this shit out and providing feedback they ignore.
 
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Burns

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Sylas said:
Just parachuting in here i don't know and don't have a dog in this fight, but how is that different than eq?

Melee got pretty much all their "skills" by 10 and then nothing for 40 levels. I mean maybe it was a little more spread out, I think we got "intimidation" at 20 (useless broken skill that it was) but like sneak hide backstab was by like, level 6? Double attack was like 16 or some shit. That was it, welcome to life as a melee
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When were disciplines put in? While I had a rogue alt (that I didn't play it all that much), I don't remember what xpac gave what things. I also have had no interest in EQ for the past 20+ years, outside of THJ.

I don't know if it was this thread or the discord, but I read that a decent chunk of people trying this game are not EQ players. So, again, just looking at the classes on the wiki or the descriptions on the main website, put archer in particular, and melee in general at a disadvantage when people know it's an incomplete game with no reference on what the classes should be.
 
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bolok

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Hatorade said:
Anyone level monk or rogue? Rogue once they get backstab I know will pick up, but monk might do it all better and easier.
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I’ve only done a monk to 5 ish? Fd and the heal button are pretty handy, but sound like the dps isn’t super hot until perhaps much later when they can start quad hitting.
 
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TJT

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Kriptini said:
I'll never understand why people enjoy solo questing for leveling in MMOs. Why do you log onto a multiplayer game to play by yourself?
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Not the point. The point is that you CAN do stuff solo and aren't limited by other players not being around to quest. If questing is the primary goal of the game. In order to manage this a little better a MMO needs a plethora of progression routes that are not limited to other players helping you. Such as crafting, minigame stuff, etc etc.

In vanilla EQ necromancer was an appealing class because it could solo well. So you could progress when nobody was around.
 
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Sylas

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Burns said:
When were disciplines put in? While I had a rogue alt (that I didn't play it all that much), I don't remember what xpac gave what things. I also have had no interest in EQ for the past 20+ years, outside of THJ.

I don't know if it was this thread or the discord, but I read that a decent chunk of people trying this game are not EQ players. So, again, just looking at the classes on the wiki or the descriptions on the main website, put archer in particular, and melee in general at a disadvantage when people know it's an incomplete game with no reference on what the classes should be.
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Disciplines were initially added in kunark and were lvl 51-60.

I don't know when the lower level disciplines were added. I don't remember them existing at all so after luclin
 
mkopec

mkopec

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Sylas said:
Disciplines were initially added in kunark and were lvl 51-60.

I don't know when the lower level disciplines were added. I don't remember them existing at all so after luclin
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I dont remember either but were they not added with the Zercer class across the board to all other melee classes?
 
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Sythrak

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Kirun said:
One of the fundamental design problems that MMO developers still haven't fully solved is how to intelligently incentivize group play without making solo play feel like a punishment. Group content should offer clearly superior rewards - whether that's in the form of experience gain, loot, story progression, or world impact - but solo progression still needs to be "viable", even if it's slower or more limited in scope.

The issue that's plagued the genre - particularly post-WoW - is that most MMOs end up defaulting to extremes. On one end of the spectrum, you have games where solo play is just as efficient, if not more so, than grouping. In these cases, there's little reason to seek out others unless you're tackling high-end raid content, which often arrives well after a player has already established their core habits and routines. The result? Players don't form meaningful social bonds because they don't need to, and MMOs lose a key element of what once made them feel alive and community-driven.

On the other end, you have MMOs that make you almost entirely dependent on grouping for every inch of progress. This creates its own host of issues: long queue times/group wait lists, frustration when groups fail, burnout from always having to coordinate schedules, and completely alienating players who simply prefer a more self-paced or flexible playstyle.

The persistent failure to strike a balance between rewarding cooperation and respecting autonomy is one of the reasons why the genre has struggled to evolve meaningfully in the last two decades. What we need is a system where group play feels naturally rewarding, not artificially enforced. Let solo players take their time and grind out their goals, but give groups clear, tangible advantages: faster progression, access to exclusive mechanics, loot, or emergent gameplay that simply doesn't exist in a solo context.

Until designers move beyond this binary “solo vs. group” framework and start building systems that encourage fluid cooperation without punishing independence, MMOs will keep repeating the same shallow loop, just dressed up in different aesthetics and monetization models.
Click to expand...
I think maybe taking mercs to a new level might solve it. Something similar to how FFXIV does it where you can get a group of NPC's to do things with but naturally wouldnt be as good as full player group. You run into the problem with competing for space with solo groupers if the content is open world though I guess, but I think pick zones would mitigate that.
 
Gravel

Gravel

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I dunno, I feel like mercs are just soloing with extra steps. Ignore the models for them, how is it any different than say, the AA system? Or a new spell/skill? Actually, more aptly, it's just adding a pet.

Speaking of AAs, I know they're somewhat controversial with EQ, but I feel like they're one area that EQ nailed as far as horizontal progression and I can't think of any other game that implemented something like it. Especially with the ones that were purely QOL and not power creep. Things like run speed, eating less, underwater breathing, and shit like that.

But they extend endgame without the associated increase in levels. I think the balance with them becoming mandatory is where it gets dicey.
 
Kirun

Kirun

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Sythrak said:
I think maybe taking mercs to a new level might solve it. Something similar to how FFXIV does it where you can get a group of NPC's to do things with but naturally wouldnt be as good as full player group. You run into the problem with competing for space with solo groupers if the content is open world though I guess, but I think pick zones would mitigate that.
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That still doesn't really address the core issue, though. Systems like enhanced mercenaries, while convenient, ultimately reinforce a "solo-first" mindset. When players become accustomed to solving content with AI companions, even if those companions are suboptimal compared to real players, they begin to structure their habits, expectations, and playstyle around being self-sufficient.

The deeper problem is that this gradually erodes the social and communal dynamics that traditionally made MMORPGs unique. You're not necessarily enforcing solo play outright, but you’re nudging players away from relying on, or even seeking out, organic group interaction. Grouping becomes optional background noise rather than a fundamental part of the game's rhythm.

At that point, you're not naturally incentivizing group play. You're just allowing it to exist passively, and for most players, that means it simply fades into the margins. The end result is a game that "technically" supports multiplayer, but in practice feels more like a single-player experience with a chat box.
 
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Gravel

Gravel

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I mentioned it during this latest test, but they really nailed the grouping aspect. Every group I had, people were utilizing group chat and actually captured something I only remember EQ having.

If they can solve my issue I have now as an adult where I need to take a quick break from the group every hour or two, it'd be perfect. I know that's more of a me problem than the game, but I imagine I'm not alone here.
 
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Quaid

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Gravel said:
I mentioned it during this latest test, but they really nailed the grouping aspect. Every group I had, people were utilizing group chat and actually captured something I only remember EQ having.

If they can solve my issue I have now as an adult where I need to take a quick break from the group every hour or two, it'd be perfect. I know that's more of a me problem than the game, but I imagine I'm not alone here.
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What class do you play? Just play a class that doesn’t need to be tanking, healing, pulling, or CCing. Should be fine with Mage, Necro, Wizard, Archer, Rogue, Beastlord, Spellblade, or Druid who isn’t MH. Maybe even Bard depending on group composition.
 
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Kirun

Kirun

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Gravel said:
I mentioned it during this latest test, but they really nailed the grouping aspect. Every group I had, people were utilizing group chat and actually captured something I only remember EQ having.

If they can solve my issue I have now as an adult where I need to take a quick break from the group every hour or two, it'd be perfect. I know that's more of a me problem than the game, but I imagine I'm not alone here.
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But is the prevalence of group play truly a result of it being meaningfully "incentivized" - something that naturally and organically emerges from smart game design - or is it simply because solo play is harshly punished?

In many older or "classic-style" MMORPGs, the latter is often the case. Soloing isn't discouraged through positive reinforcement of group play - it's made borderline unplayable. Certain classes can't function without external support, downtime between fights is excessive, and the experience gain is so meager that progress feels glacial. That doesn’t cultivate community, it just boxes players into a narrow corner and hopes they'll choose to socialize out of necessity.

One of the things I've always felt MMORPGs could and should explore further is a more aggressive system of grouping incentives, rather than solo penalties. In most games, the EXP bonuses for being in a group are actually quite tame - usually somewhere in the ballpark of 150% to 200%. The assumption, of course, is that you're killing at 5-6 times the rate, so the numbers should average out.

But I think that thinking is too conservative. I'd argue group EXP modifiers should be significantly more impactful - even in the range of 500% to 1000%. The idea is to make grouping a no-brainer from a progression perspective, not just a mildly more efficient alternative.

This works especially well in a game where the leveling curve is intentionally long and meaningful. If soloing remains possible - just slower, with reasonable regen and downtime, it still preserves player autonomy. But for anyone who wants to progress efficiently, grouping becomes the obvious and natural choice. And because of that, players start forming social habits and bonds early, not just when they're suddenly thrown into endgame raids or dungeon content and expected to perform as part of a team.

You need to reinforce the value of cooperation without punishing independence.
 
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...

...

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Sythrak said:
I think maybe taking mercs to a new level might solve it. Something similar to how FFXIV does it where you can get a group of NPC's to do things with but naturally wouldnt be as good as full player group. You run into the problem with competing for space with solo groupers if the content is open world though I guess, but I think pick zones would mitigate that.
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guildwars 1 at launch (and for all content) basically had these npc guys in towns that you could recuit to buid a party. their solution to the dichotamy of solovs grouping is "it's all grouping but you can group wiwth robots". it wasn't too bad.
 
Gravel

Gravel

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Quaid said:
What class do you play? Just play a class that doesn’t need to be tanking, healing, pulling, or CCing. Should be fine with Mage, Necro, Wizard, Archer, Rogue, Beastlord, Spellblade, or Druid who isn’t MH. Maybe even Bard depending on group composition.
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I played fighter. I mentioned before looking at wizard and it seemed...lackluster. It's definitely interesting looking at their stats, it seems like it's actually movement speed which is driving players to classes. Shaman, druid, and bard all get to run fast the soonest, and they're all top of the pack.
 
Quaid

Quaid

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Gravel said:
I played fighter. I mentioned before looking at wizard and it seemed...lackluster. It's definitely interesting looking at their stats, it seems like it's actually movement speed which is driving players to classes. Shaman, druid, and bard all get to run fast the soonest, and they're all top of the pack.
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That'll likely remain the case until mounts are in. Some of these zones are bananas huge.
 
Kriptini

Kriptini

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Gravel said:
If they can solve my issue I have now as an adult where I need to take a quick break from the group every hour or two, it'd be perfect. I know that's more of a me problem than the game, but I imagine I'm not alone here.
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In all groups that I've joined/started, this hasn't been an issue. We find a nice group of mobs, put down a campfire, farm the mobs on spawn, and when people need to take 15 minute breaks, they just tell the group and then we kill slower or pull smaller until they get back. No big deal. If we decide we want to move deeper into the dungeon, we just wait for that person to come back from AFK. It's pretty chill.

I think what's more troublesome is when you need to leave a group in an emergency situation. In that scenario, only a few classes are actually capable of doing so safely. The full caster classes can all Gate home, Monks can belly flop to the zone entrance, and Rogues have stealth that has an unlimited duration and (as far as I can tell) works against all mobs, but other classes don't really have a way of getting to a safe place without an escort. On the wiki, I noticed that there is a potion that has the same effect as the Gate spell, but it didn't show up as a craftable recipe for me in-game. I hope that item makes it into the game.
 
Burns

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Kriptini said:
In all groups that I've joined/started, this hasn't been an issue. We find a nice group of mobs, put down a campfire, farm the mobs on spawn, and when people need to take 15 minute breaks, they just tell the group and then we kill slower or pull smaller until they get back. No big deal. If we decide we want to move deeper into the dungeon, we just wait for that person to come back from AFK. It's pretty chill.

I think what's more troublesome is when you need to leave a group in an emergency situation. In that scenario, only a few classes are actually capable of doing so safely. The full caster classes can all Gate home, Monks can belly flop to the zone entrance, and Rogues have stealth that has an unlimited duration and (as far as I can tell) works against all mobs, but other classes don't really have a way of getting to a safe place without an escort. On the wiki, I noticed that there is a potion that has the same effect as the Gate spell, but it didn't show up as a craftable recipe for me in-game. I hope that item makes it into the game.
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According to Disco, there are discoverable recipes, so it may be in already.

When looking for what to do with spider silk, there were some comments stating that there was armor discovered in the previous test, but of course no one will say what the recipe is. I combined 2 silks to make a thread, which wasn't on the list, but not about to just start trying random combos of cloth, silk, thread, and leather. More so when I was playing an SK.
 
Kriptini

Kriptini

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Burns said:
When looking for what to do with spider silk, there were some comments stating that there was armor discovered in the previous test, but of course no one will say what the recipe is. I combined 2 silks to make a thread, which wasn't on the list, but not about to just start trying random combos of cloth, silk, thread, and leather. More so when I was playing an SK.
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Yeah I have the master blacksmith's quest that requires me to experiment with enchanted copper, flux, and a mob drop in a way that I can't figure out. I'm hoping someone else just posts the answer lol.
 
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