Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

vegetoeeVegetoee · 2025-11-11T16:22:40-0500

GuardianX said:
Lower TTK basically makes most debuffs / DoTs pointless, mobs don't live 30s much less 2-5 minutes unless you are doing some strange stuff.

I see what people are talking about regarding like Increasing the TTK but I dunno. Across the board most things kinda need about a 1-2 minute kill time (they are 30-45s max atm with named being about 1 min) but that means they should also:

Increase the XP given by about x2-x3
Density should be decreased by a similar amount
Spell cost should be lowered for Damage and CC abilities (Buffs and whatnot should be fine)

(EDIT: other changes are needed to when changing TTK, it's not just a dial turn solving a problem)

I really doubt they are gunna do all I listed, at most I really see them just turning the HP dialer up.

Ah I gotcha, I was thinking reverse. Long day.

Nirgon · 2025-11-11T16:24:18-0500

Kirun said:
If there's one thing the MMO genre was begging for in 2025, it was absolutely another EverQuest tribute band. Truly groundbreaking stuff. Nothing says "innovation" like reinstalling the same 1999 friction systems that every game since has been trying to evolve past.

It's actually kind of impressive how deeply people have fallen in love with nostalgia as a lifestyle. We're basically at the point where gaming is the emotional equivalent of eating kid cereal in your mid-30s and calling it a personality.

This is exactly like Hollywood's decade+ of sequels and reboots. Except the general audience finally started to notice their scam and walk away. Meanwhile gamers? They're still lining up for their fourth serving of "Remember That Thing™".

It's bleak, honestly. Every time one of these "old school returns" pops up, the same 5,000 dudes show up to roleplay being 14 again, swear this will be the one that saves the genre, and then evaporate the second the novelty wears off. But hey, we get the games we deserve. And right now, we deserve reruns.

If they made another legit Predator movie, id go see it in the theater.

These guys are along those lines and I want it the same.

Del · 2025-11-11T16:44:33-0500

Kirun said:
Caving to casuals already? Uh oh...

How does making mobs take longer to kill and thus become harder and more resource draining for soloers and small groups cave to casuals exactly?

Kithani · 2025-11-11T17:00:35-0500

Del said:
How does making mobs take longer to kill and thus become harder and more resource draining for soloers and small groups cave to casuals exactly?

I want 18 hour boss fights like FFXI what kinda pussy shit is this MNM game pulling

Del · 2025-11-11T17:00:51-0500

Quaid said:
How exactly will increasing TTK and making group formation more necessary vs solo play reduce group formation friction?

What impact do you think spreading the concurrent population over a world 4x as large as it is now have on group formation?

I think people will be more inclined to meet up with people that they grouped with before and had a good time with and develop longer term relationships with them in game. I've seen it happen already in the playtests at higher levels.

They're planning on releasing more servers initially that will be paired up with others with plans to merge at later dates when modules drop and the world size increases with more starting areas.

Quaid · 2025-11-11T17:08:28-0500

Del said:
I think people will be more inclined to meet up with people that they grouped with before and had a good time with and develop longer term relationships with them in game. I've seen it happen already in the playtests at higher levels.

So the idea is that increasing TTK will force players to group more, and they'll enjoy that because they'll 'make friends' with other players that have been forced to group as well. Then they'll have such a good time doing this thing they were forced to do with each other, they'll be more willing to go through high levels of group formation hardship to experience it again.

Do I have that right? If I'm sounding belittling I'm not trying to. I'm genuinely trying to understand the train of thought here.

What if they're unwilling or unable to spend time travelling far distances, or don't make friends once they do go through the hardship and engage with group gameplay? What if the group sucks and dies a lot? What if it breaks up immediately? What if they don't like to talk much? What if the people are mean or weird?

Why aren't they just quitting instead? Is that player not M&M material if this happens? Is this game 'just not for them'?

Quaid · 2025-11-11T17:21:42-0500

Del said:
They're planning on releasing more servers initially that will be paired up with others with plans to merge at later dates when modules drop and the world size increases with more starting areas.

So they plan to have many unique server rulesets... but 5000 players is successful to them and it's a niche game... but if the world is too big to facilitate grouping they'll merge servers....

I see.

Daidraco · 2025-11-11T17:28:08-0500

Del said:
I think people will be more inclined to meet up with people that they grouped with before and had a good time with and develop longer term relationships with them in game. I've seen it happen already in the playtests at higher levels.

They're planning on releasing more servers initially that will be paired up with others with plans to merge at later dates when modules drop and the world size increases with more starting areas.

There just isnt enough content/itemization to deter the bullshittery of whats happening in Wyrmsbane, Ancient Crypt etc. at low levels. (Level 20+'s farming named lvl 10 mobs, cock blocking lvl 8 groups for example.) So more content will definitely help out here like you're saying.

Increasing a mobs HP/Damage/EXP wouldnt get rid of "those" guys - but it would get rid of or deter the level 12's that are killing four+ mobs at a time that are level 6-7 (for example). Because,

Quaid - if it takes more time to kill those four mobs, then they'll probably pull fewer mobs (which is already a win) - but since theyre solo, itll be more dangerous. Enough to the point that they'll likely move on to a more level appropriate situation that is less dangerous. Where as a full group on the other hand, will have mez's and more to deal with the changes and danger. I dont see where I could be wrong concerning this, especially since people sound like they agree with me - but maybe you have some sort of deeper insight?

Also, it feels absolutely pointless in Wyrmsbane as a class that DOT's like he said. TTK in the very bottom of Wyrmsbane is probably 10-15 seconds max for any group Ive made/been a part of. As long as the people in the group arent retarded and dont let healers get heals/LOH's/CH's get off - then fights are over in a handful of seconds. Should HP be so high that Necro and Shaman Dots are A+ tier? Not as a rule. But 45-60 seconds per mob, with a proper puller/luller and mezzers waiting seems more deliberate.

Del · 2025-11-11T17:28:24-0500

Quaid said:
So the idea is that increasing TTK will force players to group more, and they'll enjoy that because they'll 'make friends' with other players that have been forced to group as well. Then they'll have such a good time doing this thing they were forced to do with each other, they'll be more willing to go through high levels of group formation hardship to experience it again.

Do I have that right? If I'm sounding belittling I'm not trying to. I'm genuinely trying to understand the train of thought here.

If they're unwilling to travel far distances, or have a poor grouping experience (or many) once they do, why aren't they just quitting instead?

It won't "force" people to do anything, but the people who are dead set on thinking that their class should be able to solo white con and above content probably will quit, and the people who hate having to travel any length of time will either make friends with or play a class that teleports or quit, and this is just my opinion, but I don't really care if they do. The people that stay will stay because they like the game and either like or see groups and travel times as necessary trade offs for a more social and interactive virtual world.

Del · 2025-11-11T17:32:55-0500

Quaid said:
So they plan to have many unique server rulesets... but 5000 players is successful to them and it's a niche game... but if the world is too big to facilitate grouping they'll merge servers....

I see.

The plan for those unique server rulesets only exist if the demand is there obviously.

They're planning on merging servers anyway, they just don't want 1k+ people hanging out in Night Harbor/Faelindral because those will be the only starting cities at launch.

Quaid · 2025-11-11T17:38:36-0500

Del said:
It won't "force" people to do anything, but the people who are dead set on thinking that their class should be able to solo white con and above content probably will quit, and the people who hate having to travel any length of time will either make friends with or play a class that teleports or quit, and this is just my opinion, but I don't really care if they do. The people that stay will stay because they like the game and either like or see groups and travel times as necessary trade offs for a more social and interactive virtual world.

Ok so people should only be able to solo blue cons? So you're saying soloing should be viable but grouping should be the optimal way to gain xp, ya?

Then we agree! Nice. Classic WoW did this amazingly well.

Kirun · 2025-11-11T18:47:10-0500

rad said:
Maybe you're looking for a discussion, but most of your posts in this thread are telling everyone you know better while arguing with strawmen. You come off as a condescending ass.

Ah, there it is. The "condescending" card, classic.

Let's be clear: I’m not claiming to "know better." I'm pointing out inconsistencies in the arguments being made. And the reason you feel like I’m "talking down" is because no one has actually provided a coherent counter-point. Every time the discussion gets to the core design questions of - Why is forced downtime good? What does corpse recovery add other than inconvenience? How do you sustain a grouping-dependent game with low concurrency?

The responses become: "You just hate the game." "It's not for you." "You're being negative." "Lol boomer/zoomer/don't play." That's not a discussion. It's emotional self-protection. It's just an emotional response to anything that threatens the feeling people want the game to give them. If someone had actually broken down why these systems work (beyond "they were in EQ"), I'd engage that. Happily.

But instead, what I'm doing is holding up a mirror to arguments like: "We want high friction because it builds community - but also won't complain if nobody plays." "This is meant to be niche and low population - but also grouping will be the core of every level range." "We don't want modern MMOs - but we expect modern stability, content cadence, and sustainability."

If a system is fun, it doesn't need nostalgia to justify itself. If a system is good, it stands on its own design merit. If a system is tedium rebranded as identity, people can and will critique it - especially before release, when it still matters. That's not being an ass. That's literally what makes discussion worthwhile. If pointing out contradictions = "condescending," then the issue isn't my tone, it's the fragility of the premise.

If you do have a well-reasoned case for these systems then make it. I'll respond in good faith. But if the response to critique is just: "You sound condescending." Then all you've actually said is: "I don’t have an argument. I only have a feeling.” And I can't fix that for you.

Del said:
How does making mobs take longer to kill and thus become harder and more resource draining for soloers and small groups cave to casuals exactly?

I read it wrong. I thought they were reducing TTK, not increasing it.

Quaid · 2025-11-11T19:42:55-0500

Daidraco said:
There just isnt enough content/itemization to deter the bullshittery of whats happening in Wyrmsbane, Ancient Crypt etc. at low levels. (Level 20+'s farming named lvl 10 mobs, cock blocking lvl 8 groups for example.) So more content will definitely help out here like you're saying.

Increasing a mobs HP/Damage/EXP wouldnt get rid of "those" guys - but it would get rid of or deter the level 12's that are killing four+ mobs at a time that are level 6-7 (for example). Because, Quaid - if it takes more time to kill those four mobs, then they'll probably pull fewer mobs (which is already a win) - but since theyre solo, itll be more dangerous. Enough to the point that they'll likely move on to a more level appropriate situation that is less dangerous. Where as a full group on the other hand, will have mez's and more to deal with the changes and danger. I dont see where I could be wrong concerning this, especially since people sound like they agree with me - but maybe you have some sort of deeper insight?

Also, it feels absolutely pointless in Wyrmsbane as a class that DOT's like he said. TTK in the very bottom of Wyrmsbane is probably 10-15 seconds max for any group Ive made/been a part of. As long as the people in the group arent retarded and dont let healers get heals/LOH's/CH's get off - then fights are over in a handful of seconds. Should HP be so high that Necro and Shaman Dots are A+ tier? Not as a rule. But 45-60 seconds per mob, with a proper puller/luller and mezzers waiting seems more deliberate.

I’m extremely unclear on what argument you’re making in relation to anything I’ve been saying. I have no ‘deeper insight’ about how to deter folks from fighting too many MOBs in dungeons, nor have I spoken about that… at all.

I don’t even understand how your post relates to the one you quoted. I feel like you have sidestepped the discussion all together in favour of talking about something else you were thinking about.

Drapdis · 2025-11-11T19:52:08-0500

Kirun said:
Ah, there it is. The "condescending" card, classic.

Let's be clear: I’m not claiming to "know better." I'm pointing out inconsistencies in the arguments being made. And the reason you feel like I’m "talking down" is because no one has actually provided a coherent counter-point. Every time the discussion gets to the core design questions of - Why is forced downtime good? What does corpse recovery add other than inconvenience? How do you sustain a grouping-dependent game with low concurrency?

The responses become: "You just hate the game." "It's not for you." "You're being negative." "Lol boomer/zoomer/don't play." That's not a discussion. It's emotional self-protection. It's just an emotional response to anything that threatens the feeling people want the game to give them. If someone had actually broken down why these systems work (beyond "they were in EQ"), I'd engage that. Happily.

But instead, what I'm doing is holding up a mirror to arguments like: "We want high friction because it builds community - but also won't complain if nobody plays." "This is meant to be niche and low population - but also grouping will be the core of every level range." "We don't want modern MMOs - but we expect modern stability, content cadence, and sustainability."

If a system is fun, it doesn't need nostalgia to justify itself. If a system is good, it stands on its own design merit. If a system is tedium rebranded as identity, people can and will critique it - especially before release, when it still matters. That's not being an ass. That's literally what makes discussion worthwhile. If pointing out contradictions = "condescending," then the issue isn't my tone, it's the fragility of the premise.

If you do have a well-reasoned case for these systems then make it. I'll respond in good faith. But if the response to critique is just: "You sound condescending." Then all you've actually said is: "I don’t have an argument. I only have a feeling.” And I can't fix that for you.

I read it wrong. I thought they were reducing TTK, not increasing it.

You say downtime is bad, I think it’s good. I like it because it is another dimension to consider when making decisions. Why do you think downtime is bad?

It’s not even a big problem if you think about it. Let’s say you kill 10 mobs for 1exp each and each kill takes 30 seconds and get 10 exp no downtime between.

killing 1 mob for 10 exp with the kill taking 2 min and having 3:00min downtime.

so the tedium of having downtime is objectively better in this scenario. Your fundamental argument sucks. Are you mad about the grind or what because downtime is irrelevant.

the tedium all adds dimensions. You created the bar of massive population but the stated goal is niche dedicated player base. So you are not arguing. It’s like walking into a local hamburger and saying they would do better business if they were McDonald’s. No shit

edit: you are arguing that people don’t actually like what they think they like. I don’t feel the need to go into details about out how insane that is. But that is what you are doing.

Daidraco · 2025-11-11T19:58:21-0500

Quaid said:
I’m extremely unclear on what argument you’re making in relation to anything I’ve been saying. I have no ‘deeper insight’ about how to deter folks from fighting too many MOBs in dungeons, nor have I spoken about that… at all.

I don’t even understand how your post relates to the one you quoted. I feel like you have sidestepped the discussion all together in favour of talking about something else you were thinking about.

Quaid said:
So the idea is that increasing TTK will force players to group more, and they'll enjoy that because they'll 'make friends' with other players that have been forced to group as well. Then they'll have such a good time doing this thing they were forced to do with each other, they'll be more willing to go through high levels of group formation hardship to experience it again.

The subject in discussion was the increase in time to kill. Which was being discussed because of said problems I listed. Which a longer TTK will indirectly inspire either the solo person thats killing multiple low level mobs to reach out to people and group in their appropriate level range - OR - the group that was discouraged by a lack of things to kill in dungeon because of previously mentioned high level - will be more inclined to group because they will have more mobs to kill. Giving a chance for social bonds to form in a group. I apologize that I was not extremely clear and gave direct links to the overarching conversation at hand.

As far as the inane comment about being forced to group - no one is forcing anyone to group. Making it more advantageous for a person to group in a game that wants to call itself an MMO does not mean its required.

---------------------
Regardless of what anyone here "thinks" - right or wrong, its ultimately the devs that get to decide what happens within the game. Voicing complaints is as welcome as praise as far as Im concerned. Nitpicking peoples praise of the game and tearing them down is a pretty shitty thing to do.

Drapdis said:
Why do you think downtime is bad?

The three of them typically dont answer questions back in good faith.

Quaid · 2025-11-11T20:18:45-0500

Daidraco said:
The subject in discussion was the increase in time to kill. Which was being discussed because of said problems I listed. Which a longer TTK will indirectly inspire either the solo person thats killing multiple low level mobs to reach out to people and group in their appropriate level range - OR - the group that was discouraged by a lack of things to kill in dungeon because of previously mentioned high level - will be more inclined to group because they will have more mobs to kill. Giving a chance for social bonds to form in a group. I apologize that I was not extremely clear and gave direct links to the overarching conversation at hand.

As far as the inane comment about being forced to group - no one is forcing anyone to group. Making it more advantageous for a person to group in a game that wants to call itself an MMO does not mean its required.

---------------------
Regardless of what anyone here "thinks" - right or wrong, its ultimately the devs that get to decide what happens within the game. Voicing complaints is as welcome as praise as far as Im concerned. Nitpicking peoples praise of the game and tearing them down is a pretty shitty thing to do.

The three of them typically dont answer questions back in good faith.

A proposed TTK increase was being discussed with how it relates to people’s decision to engage with group formation friction, or to not. Your scenario barely related, and it still doesn’t after further explanation.

Also, a 60 second TTK is fucking insanity. Is THAT what is being discussed over there? There’s like 40 mobs to clear through to get the The Ghoul Lord in Lguk. Are we proposing 45 minute CLEARS to cash/xp camps now? In addition to an hour+ of group formation and travel? Then another 45mins to clear out because your tank can’t gate and you don’t have a teleporting class? I’m gonna have time to taunt SEVEN TIMES before something dies??? And wtf is the respawn time in this 60 second TTK hellscape?

Yeesh. The thing this game’s community needs the most is some actual dissent, instead of more people polishing the golden calf.

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