Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
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Nirgon
Log Wizard
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If they made another legit Predator movie, id go see it in the theater.
These guys are along those lines and I want it the same.
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Del
Potato del Grande
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How does making mobs take longer to kill and thus become harder and more resource draining for soloers and small groups cave to casuals exactly?
Del
Potato del Grande
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I think people will be more inclined to meet up with people that they grouped with before and had a good time with and develop longer term relationships with them in game. I've seen it happen already in the playtests at higher levels.
They're planning on releasing more servers initially that will be paired up with others with plans to merge at later dates when modules drop and the world size increases with more starting areas.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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So the idea is that increasing TTK will force players to group more, and they'll enjoy that because they'll 'make friends' with other players that have been forced to group as well. Then they'll have such a good time doing this thing they were forced to do with each other, they'll be more willing to go through high levels of group formation hardship to experience it again.
Do I have that right? If I'm sounding belittling I'm not trying to. I'm genuinely trying to understand the train of thought here.
What if they're unwilling or unable to spend time travelling far distances, or don't make friends once they do go through the hardship and engage with group gameplay? What if the group sucks and dies a lot? What if it breaks up immediately? What if they don't like to talk much? What if the people are mean or weird?
Why aren't they just quitting instead? Is that player not M&M material if this happens? Is this game 'just not for them'?
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Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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There just isnt enough content/itemization to deter the bullshittery of whats happening in Wyrmsbane, Ancient Crypt etc. at low levels. (Level 20+'s farming named lvl 10 mobs, cock blocking lvl 8 groups for example.) So more content will definitely help out here like you're saying.
Increasing a mobs HP/Damage/EXP wouldnt get rid of "those" guys - but it would get rid of or deter the level 12's that are killing four+ mobs at a time that are level 6-7 (for example). Because,
Quaid
- if it takes more time to kill those four mobs, then they'll probably pull fewer mobs (which is already a win) - but since theyre solo, itll be more dangerous. Enough to the point that they'll likely move on to a more level appropriate situation that is less dangerous. Where as a full group on the other hand, will have mez's and more to deal with the changes and danger. I dont see where I could be wrong concerning this, especially since people sound like they agree with me - but maybe you have some sort of deeper insight?Also, it feels absolutely pointless in Wyrmsbane as a class that DOT's like he said. TTK in the very bottom of Wyrmsbane is probably 10-15 seconds max for any group Ive made/been a part of. As long as the people in the group arent retarded and dont let healers get heals/LOH's/CH's get off - then fights are over in a handful of seconds. Should HP be so high that Necro and Shaman Dots are A+ tier? Not as a rule. But 45-60 seconds per mob, with a proper puller/luller and mezzers waiting seems more deliberate.
Del
Potato del Grande
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It won't "force" people to do anything, but the people who are dead set on thinking that their class should be able to solo white con and above content probably will quit, and the people who hate having to travel any length of time will either make friends with or play a class that teleports or quit, and this is just my opinion, but I don't really care if they do. The people that stay will stay because they like the game and either like or see groups and travel times as necessary trade offs for a more social and interactive virtual world.
Del
Potato del Grande
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The plan for those unique server rulesets only exist if the demand is there obviously.
They're planning on merging servers anyway, they just don't want 1k+ people hanging out in Night Harbor/Faelindral because those will be the only starting cities at launch.
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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Ah, there it is. The "condescending" card, classic.
Let's be clear: I’m not claiming to "know better." I'm pointing out inconsistencies in the arguments being made. And the reason you feel like I’m "talking down" is because no one has actually provided a coherent counter-point. Every time the discussion gets to the core design questions of - Why is forced downtime good? What does corpse recovery add other than inconvenience? How do you sustain a grouping-dependent game with low concurrency?
The responses become: "You just hate the game." "It's not for you." "You're being negative." "Lol boomer/zoomer/don't play." That's not a discussion. It's emotional self-protection. It's just an emotional response to anything that threatens the feeling people want the game to give them. If someone had actually broken down why these systems work (beyond "they were in EQ"), I'd engage that. Happily.
But instead, what I'm doing is holding up a mirror to arguments like: "We want high friction because it builds community - but also won't complain if nobody plays." "This is meant to be niche and low population - but also grouping will be the core of every level range." "We don't want modern MMOs - but we expect modern stability, content cadence, and sustainability."
If a system is fun, it doesn't need nostalgia to justify itself. If a system is good, it stands on its own design merit. If a system is tedium rebranded as identity, people can and will critique it - especially before release, when it still matters. That's not being an ass. That's literally what makes discussion worthwhile. If pointing out contradictions = "condescending," then the issue isn't my tone, it's the fragility of the premise.
If you do have a well-reasoned case for these systems then make it. I'll respond in good faith. But if the response to critique is just: "You sound condescending." Then all you've actually said is: "I don’t have an argument. I only have a feeling.” And I can't fix that for you.
I read it wrong. I thought they were reducing TTK, not increasing it.
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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There just isnt enough content/itemization to deter the bullshittery of whats happening in Wyrmsbane, Ancient Crypt etc. at low levels. (Level 20+'s farming named lvl 10 mobs, cock blocking lvl 8 groups for example.) So more content will definitely help out here like you're saying.
Increasing a mobs HP/Damage/EXP wouldnt get rid of "those" guys - but it would get rid of or deter the level 12's that are killing four+ mobs at a time that are level 6-7 (for example). Because,
Also, it feels absolutely pointless in Wyrmsbane as a class that DOT's like he said. TTK in the very bottom of Wyrmsbane is probably 10-15 seconds max for any group Ive made/been a part of. As long as the people in the group arent retarded and dont let healers get heals/LOH's/CH's get off - then fights are over in a handful of seconds. Should HP be so high that Necro and Shaman Dots are A+ tier? Not as a rule. But 45-60 seconds per mob, with a proper puller/luller and mezzers waiting seems more deliberate.
I’m extremely unclear on what argument you’re making in relation to anything I’ve been saying. I have no ‘deeper insight’ about how to deter folks from fighting too many MOBs in dungeons, nor have I spoken about that… at all.
I don’t even understand how your post relates to the one you quoted. I feel like you have sidestepped the discussion all together in favour of talking about something else you were thinking about.
You say downtime is bad, I think it’s good. I like it because it is another dimension to consider when making decisions. Why do you think downtime is bad?
It’s not even a big problem if you think about it. Let’s say you kill 10 mobs for 1exp each and each kill takes 30 seconds and get 10 exp no downtime between.
killing 1 mob for 10 exp with the kill taking 2 min and having 3:00min downtime.
so the tedium of having downtime is objectively better in this scenario. Your fundamental argument sucks. Are you mad about the grind or what because downtime is irrelevant.
the tedium all adds dimensions. You created the bar of massive population but the stated goal is niche dedicated player base. So you are not arguing. It’s like walking into a local hamburger and saying they would do better business if they were McDonald’s. No shit
edit: you are arguing that people don’t actually like what they think they like. I don’t feel the need to go into details about out how insane that is. But that is what you are doing.
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Daidraco
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The subject in discussion was the increase in time to kill. Which was being discussed because of said problems I listed. Which a longer TTK will indirectly inspire either the solo person thats killing multiple low level mobs to reach out to people and group in their appropriate level range - OR - the group that was discouraged by a lack of things to kill in dungeon because of previously mentioned high level - will be more inclined to group because they will have more mobs to kill. Giving a chance for social bonds to form in a group. I apologize that I was not extremely clear and gave direct links to the overarching conversation at hand.
As far as the inane comment about being forced to group - no one is forcing anyone to group. Making it more advantageous for a person to group in a game that wants to call itself an MMO does not mean its required.
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Regardless of what anyone here "thinks" - right or wrong, its ultimately the devs that get to decide what happens within the game. Voicing complaints is as welcome as praise as far as Im concerned. Nitpicking peoples praise of the game and tearing them down is a pretty shitty thing to do.
The three of them typically dont answer questions back in good faith.
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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A proposed TTK increase was being discussed with how it relates to people’s decision to engage with group formation friction, or to not. Your scenario barely related, and it still doesn’t after further explanation.
Also, a 60 second TTK is fucking insanity. Is THAT what is being discussed over there? There’s like 40 mobs to clear through to get the The Ghoul Lord in Lguk. Are we proposing 45 minute CLEARS to cash/xp camps now? In addition to an hour+ of group formation and travel? Then another 45mins to clear out because your tank can’t gate and you don’t have a teleporting class? I’m gonna have time to taunt SEVEN TIMES before something dies??? And wtf is the respawn time in this 60 second TTK hellscape? Pretty fucking long I’d wager. How many Ghoul Lord PHs will you even get to see before your group has to split, in this clownworld of 30 minute respawns?
Yeesh. The thing this game’s community needs the most is some actual dissent, instead of more people polishing the golden calf.
Daidraco
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TTK is based off equal level con. The mobs from the main entrance to Lguk are 24 to 46. You know this as well as I do. I also answered your questions in particular, but now those arent good enough. Shame on me for engaging with you when I already knew the outcome.
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Your points were unclear and barely related to the topic at hand. The extent of your argument, with a lot of extra words, was ‘increased TTK incentivizes grouping and disincentivizes soloing’, which is of course correct. But HOW DOES THIS MAKE A PLAYER MORE LIKELY TO ENGAGE WITH GROUP FORMATION FRICTION? Do you need FURTHER clarification on this?
Also it’s like 6 mobs at the entry of dead side that are that low, and once you get past BR (29-32ish) there’s very little under level 35 and there’s a lot of stuff to get through. In your scenario a level 40 group going to a Lord camp would be looking at a good 40 minute clear down with near constant pulls. Forget downtime from your absolutely epic 60sec TTK trash mobs. Even if TTK drops to 50 secs because the mobs are dark blue it’s still absurd.
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Daidraco
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HURR DURR TYPE IN CAPS - No you're just fucking dense.
My scenario? I just said the range? Tf are you even talking about? Who the fuck fights everything leading all the way up to Archmagi room, first off? You're being difficult for the sake of being difficult cause you know people drop off the ledge and you know those mobs around the slaves are in their mid 30's. Second, have you done the math for the shit around Eye, Frenzy and Lord? They have 9-12k hp and your average group in their low 40's is 200-300 DPS in classic gear in a group thats organically made and not 4 fucking enchanter pets, a puller and a cleric. Ie. 40-60 seconds per fucking mob for Joe Blows. Your comparison is fucking terrible.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Cute - you’re frustrated that you don’t understand why you’re not making sense.
I mean… i wasn’t specifically talking about Guk as it is or was. I was using it as an example of layout and mob density that a group may encounter in an MNM crawl. My usage of ‘your scenario’ was using your proposed TTK numbers on even con mobs. If a level 40 group had to fight their way down to Lord, with a 60 sec TTK, through 40 mobs within a decent level range of the group (35-42) you’re looking at around 40 minutes. I’m not actually talking about Guk, nor the geometry in that zone people can use to bypass combat. I was just using that to paint a relatable picture of how many mobs you may have to get through to get to a target camp spot, and how that relates to TTK, dungeon crawling, and respawn rate. MNM dungeons will have their own unique composition & challenges… but if you’ve gotta kill 40 MOBs to get to a camp, with a 60sec TTK that’s 40 minutes before downtime. Given the Ghoul Lord example, it’s very likely you’ll see 40 MOB clears in MNM.
Also, i don’t know what source you’re using but not a single trash MOB in LGUK had 9k hp. On Dead Side bok ghoul knights capped out at 5226hp. I suspect your whole group DPS numbers are as TOTAL FUCKING HORSE SHIT AS YOUR PHONY MOB HP NUMBERS.
Shame on you.
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