Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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Or you could just fucking use google, or p99, or whatever other source thats readily available. Youre using all caps in multiple posts now, but Im the frustrated one.
Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
- Start date
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Or you could just fucking use google, or p99, or whatever other source thats readily available. Youre using all caps in multiple posts now, but Im the frustrated one.
LIKE THIS LINK FROM P99???
A bok ghoul knight - Project 1999 Wiki
HOW ABOUT PQDI????
THE CAPSLOCK WILL CONTINUE UNTIL I SEE A CLASSIC ERA NON-NAMED DEADSIDE LGUK FROGLOK WITH >9000 HP OR AN ADMISSION OF YOUR LIES
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Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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I can cherry pick mobs, too! But I guess you're not counting cleric and shaman buffs that were on fucking everything! Hell, lets go a step further and strip away the fact that a lot of people didnt have an fbss, or even good weapons if theyre farming Lord - so now our DPS is even less! Lets keep it going!LIKE THIS LINK FROM P99???
A bok ghoul knight - Project 1999 Wiki
wiki.project1999.com
HOW ABOUT PQDI????
The Ghoul Lord - Project 1999 Wiki
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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I can cherry pick mobs, too! But I guess you're not counting cleric and shaman buffs that were on fucking everything! Hell, lets go a step further and strip away the fact that a lot of people didnt have an fbss, or even good weapons if theyre farming Lord - so now our DPS is even less! Lets keep it going!
The Ghoul Lord - Project 1999 Wiki
a bok ghoul knight was ‘cherry picked’ because it is in fact, the highest HP non-named MOB on dead side.
there was not a single cleric or shaman dead side froglok MOB, except for ‘a ghoul savant’, a level 35 named. He could buff the mobs around him with Symbol of Pinzarn, which is a +224 HP buff, and Valor, a +168 HP buff
So assuming the Savant could get near a bok ghoul knight, the highest HP mob in the area (it could not), that would be 224+168+5226 HP, a total of 5618. A pretty far cry from your 9-12k hmmmm? By your own phony group DPS numbers, a 26sec TTK.
Let’s hope you’re better at MNM than you are at being intellectually honest. Hell, let’s hope you’re better at MNM than you were at EQ lmfao
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Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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No caps anymore?Sure! We’ll use your numbers for hp and not rebuke the dps numbers under your narrative! Stuff totally died within 15 seconds at Lord/arch/frenzy.
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wtf is this unhinged bs? I want to see discussion about MnM, not some insane 'debate' about the HP of mobs from nearly 30 years ago.
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Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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I get where you're coming from - downtime can add decision-making depth. The problem is that in most MMOs it isn't actually being used that way. It isn't a tactical layer, it's just dead air between moments of engagement. Which is exactly what it was in EQ, don't kid yourself. There's a big difference between meaningful pacing and mandatory waiting.
If downtime creates tension, risk assessment, or resource management that actually changes player behavior, then sure, it's doing work - that's very difficult to pull off in MMOs though, when there needs to be considerations for other players as well, unlike single-player games. But when it's just a time-sink that doesn't alter how you approach encounters (which it didn't in EQ at all, once people got through the "this is new" phase and certainly won't in 2025 when we've already seen it 10,000 times in other games/MMOs) and the only "decision" is whether to alt-tab to YouTube or make another pot of coffee (and forum members have already commented on how they want a "chill" game they can watch Netflix to, which further proves the point that it's just dead air/tedium) - it stops being a mechanic and starts being filler.
Your math example also sort of proves the point: you've just compressed or stretched the same net result. But in a world where players have limited time, one of those options is still going to feel better to play, even if the XP/hour is technically equal. The point isn't "make it faster," it's make it engaging while I'm playing.
And as for the "niche hamburger joint vs McDonald's" analogy - I don't think anyone's saying MnM needs to be mainstream. But "niche" doesn't have to mean "needlessly punishing." You can build deliberate, thoughtful pacing without dragging the experience down. "Old school" doesn't automatically equal "good school."
Kithani
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Can we go full circle and start posting ceiling height measurements in the Ghoul Lord’s roomI can cherry pick mobs, too! But I guess you're not counting cleric and shaman buffs that were on fucking everything! Hell, lets go a step further and strip away the fact that a lot of people didnt have an fbss, or even good weapons if theyre farming Lord - so now our DPS is even less! Lets keep it going!
The Ghoul Lord - Project 1999 Wiki
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Well that faster vs slower dopamine reward loop difference is the whole reason people like eq. It’s same thing as other mmo but longer reward loops are more enjoyable to some people. You cannot honestly say leveling in modern mmos is anything other than button mashing, come on. What’s wrong with chilling between pulls?
Making it engaging while actually fighting argument I agree with as a critique. This isn’t out of reach for MnM and has started coming up in their discord. If they made mobs more dangerous, gave them more abilities, etc, they could fix that. It’s difficult and I have my doubts they will do it. I have never seen this done for the leveling experience in an mmo. Maybe there is one I missed, in WoW you need to get max level to do the hard mode dungeons. If you wanna talk about audience size I cannot imagine how small the market for eq style mythic dungeons would be lol.
All I want is an mmo where a solo/duo/trio can have fun and attempt content meant for 6+ people (for at least 3 months of play or so). Currently MnM falls short here as trio is best group size but it’s just a matter of tuning numbers and giving mobs abilities etc.
also you should try playing the game. It’s not punishing at all, I’m not sure why you think it is. The problem is that it’s too easy right now. Doing corpse runs and the risk of travel adds another dimension. Having to grab my corpse left deep in the starter dungeon was memorable and fun. It adds strategy to traveling and forces socialization if you need help, it’s awesome.
Pasteton
Vyemm Raider
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the med tick thing is pretty obnoxious but I’ve managed to disregard it entirely without issue into the 50s. But min maxers may feel compelled to do it which would feel miserable. Hopefully they just remove it as I don’t think anyone wants to plan around that for engaging challenging fights.
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Flobee
Vyemm Raider
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On the TTK topic something that should be considered is how this will naturally go down over time. Mudflation is going to ensure that your fresh characters moving into this content will inevitably have ever increasing gear levels and thus clear content faster. So in my mind designing your TTK to be higher than "ideal" just makes sense if you're reasonable about it. Using the 60 seconds as an example. All of the obviously superior gamers in this thread may have to deal with 60s TTK as they're hitting the content first but when little Timmy and myself get to that content maybe its 40s or lower because we bought all your weapon drops you've been selling for months. The point isn't specific numbers just that it currently feels too low.
Downtime does change behavior and its silly to pretend it doesn't. The simplest example is mob selection. If one camp can be cleared with zero downtime and the second is tougher but requires downtime that's a decision the group needs to make. Is there a compelling reason to accept the additional downtime, or is the target just pure xp thus 0 downtime is preferred? Add in an itemization layer and you're starting to add some meaningful decision making for target selection. Downtime can also be a result of poor play, for example outgoing dps from a pull could 2-3x if you don't interrupt that ice comet. That results in downtime that is a direct result of player (in)action.
Design is by its very nature a set of trade-offs. An individual may dislike specific trade-offs as many are demonstrating here, but that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to make those decisions. Taken in a vacuum they can even look stupid. You can't really say if its going to work until you have the whole formula put together. This at its core is why people defend this stuff because they like what they see so far and are optimistic the team can pull it off in a fun and engaging manner.
Going full doomer is just annoying. You might end up being right, but you're still annoying
Downtime does change behavior and its silly to pretend it doesn't. The simplest example is mob selection. If one camp can be cleared with zero downtime and the second is tougher but requires downtime that's a decision the group needs to make. Is there a compelling reason to accept the additional downtime, or is the target just pure xp thus 0 downtime is preferred? Add in an itemization layer and you're starting to add some meaningful decision making for target selection. Downtime can also be a result of poor play, for example outgoing dps from a pull could 2-3x if you don't interrupt that ice comet. That results in downtime that is a direct result of player (in)action.
Design is by its very nature a set of trade-offs. An individual may dislike specific trade-offs as many are demonstrating here, but that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to make those decisions. Taken in a vacuum they can even look stupid. You can't really say if its going to work until you have the whole formula put together. This at its core is why people defend this stuff because they like what they see so far and are optimistic the team can pull it off in a fun and engaging manner.
Going full doomer is just annoying. You might end up being right, but you're still annoying
Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I like that instead of discussing how awful a 60 second TTK would be, we're instead talking about lguk mobs.
The combat in MnM isn't engaging in any ways. Even the people who like the game admit that. You can alt tab out of the game unless you're the healer. The idea that you just want to bash HP sponges in for even longer is hilarious to me. Especially when you consider downtime and now you get to med for 5 minutes because you're blowing all your resources on a sponge.
And like he mentioned, now you've got to consider named mobs and placeholders, where if you've got a 60 second TTK need to have their respawn timers massively increased. So you may just never see them.
But sure, talk about shaman mobs buffing lower guk mobs. That seems relevant.
The combat in MnM isn't engaging in any ways. Even the people who like the game admit that. You can alt tab out of the game unless you're the healer. The idea that you just want to bash HP sponges in for even longer is hilarious to me. Especially when you consider downtime and now you get to med for 5 minutes because you're blowing all your resources on a sponge.
And like he mentioned, now you've got to consider named mobs and placeholders, where if you've got a 60 second TTK need to have their respawn timers massively increased. So you may just never see them.
But sure, talk about shaman mobs buffing lower guk mobs. That seems relevant.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Ya - the dude was just full of shit so I had to point it out. Apologies for the derail.
Respawn rate in a 60sec TTK environment would have to be extremely high to make sense - unless you want groups pulling 10 MOB sections of dungeons, or you want them grouping in areas with MOBs 8-10 levels below them. Which I dunno, maybe they think that's cool. I certainly don't.
I just know I set a timer for 1 minute on my phone and it was an absolutely agonizing amount of time to imagine killing a single trash MOB.
Also 60 second TTK is the proposition for group kills, ya? So to solo an even con MOB it should take like ~4.5x longer than that...? ~5mins to solo a white con is the proposal by the MNM poster brain trust here?
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If it currently takes 10-20 seconds, then 20-25 seconds could be better. There are many ways to making the game harder, I have no clue what they are thinking of doing though.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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10-20sec TTK for even cons is as absurd as 60sec, so i can see why there’s pushback on that.
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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You're mistaking delayed gratification for depth. EQ's pacing worked in 1999 because it was literally the only game of its kind. People had fewer options, slower internet, and way more time to burn. Today, that "longer reward loop" doesn't feel like tension, it feels like a loading screen that won't end.
And no, "chilling between pulls" isn't the problem - I love pacing. The issue is when the pacing exists because the systems themselves don't have enough meat to carry the moment-to-moment gameplay. You shouldn't need boredom to make the bursts of fun feel valuable. That's like defending commercial breaks because they make the show feel "more rewarding."
In 1999, EQ wasn't competing with Discord servers, group chats, streaming, or twenty different social networks. If you wanted to hang out online, you had to do it in the game. You chatted while medding, you built friendships because that was your only outlet during all the dead air. But that world doesn't exist anymore, no matter how badly you wish otherwise. People socialize on five different platforms simultaneously, the MMO is just one tab among many.
Trying to recreate 1999's "community through scarcity" in 2025 ignores how people actually live and connect now. Most players aren't going to sit around in silence watching mana bars crawl while waiting for conversation to spark. They'll tab out, hop on Discord, check their phone, or play something else. You can't brute-force social interaction through downtime anymore, the cultural landscape has moved past that.
That doesn't mean MMOs can't foster community, it just means the mechanisms have to evolve. You can still create cooperation, coordination, and shared achievement without forcing players into boredom as the glue. EQ's social magic came from necessity not design and necessity is gone. The cat's out of the bag. The world changed, and people's attention changed with it. If a developer wants to build genuine social connections now, they have to inspire it through engaging systems, not trap players in a waiting room and call it community.
Your point about making combat harder and more dynamic is actually spot on, though - that's the real solution. If mobs have abilities that force coordination, positioning, and adaptation, downtime becomes recovery, not something you alt-tab out of because of boredom. There's purpose behind it. But that's also why I doubt they'll do it. It's way harder to design that than it is to slap a mana regen timer on people and call it "old-school."
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I’m not mistaking it for depth because i didn’t say it added depth. Didn’t read the rest of your post. You are being silly!
