Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

S

Smithy

Potato del Grande
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Sylas said:
No need for you to apologize, daidraco is the retard who couldn't defend his argument on merit and had to erroneously derail it into a meaningless argument about lguk mob hp, in which he was also hilariously wrong about.

Eq had downtime because it had forced grouping and you had to type to chat using your fucking hands/fingers which was the same input method for controlling your character. In 2025, shit since 2010 at the very latest, people use voice chat almost exclusively for in game communication. Some games attempt to build it in but its always some clunky optional thing.

Any game that is trying to build community/ grouping encouragement and thinks over relying on downtime will accomplish it is retarded. Build a better built in, local area based voice chat so that players don't have to be sequestered off into their own little exclusionary discords if you want Randoms to communicate. Nobody is going to bother with the hassle of joining a discord for a random hour long pug crawl its too clunky.

Give me a built in push to talk button with the same immediate area range of /say...like 50 feet, or group wide if in a group. Built in to the game. Disable/limit it in towns, sure, since you aren't gonna be in combat and have time to type out shit, but out in the world let me roll up on a dude and just ask him if he needs help with that fire beetle or if he wants to group for lost caverns of pussy trolls or whatever.
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As much as I hate talking to loser neckbeards and would rather just keep it to chat, I do agree that a built-in voice chat makes sense. Folks can and will just make Discords for dungeon crawls or whatever though, I mean LoL still doesn't have voice chat and folks use Discord all the time in Solo Q games, and I'll join just because I can actually call my teammates retards without getting banned.

Unfortunately, we just aren't in 2003 anymore, for better or worse, and the 2003 way of doing things just doesn't work the same, even if you enjoy it and want things to go back to the way they were. There just needs to be compromises that exist within the realm of acknowledging reality.
 
Kirun

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
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vegetoeeVegetoee said:
What are you smoking? You don't need 90% of that. You make game, you sell game, you make money. You don't need merchant fees, operating costs are split between members. Servers are dirt cheap, staff can yourselves and 1-2 people. So many things about your posts scream you work for another competitor. Get used to competition grandpa. It's good for you.
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That's a nice fairytale, but the "you make game, you sell game, you make money" model hasn't existed since dial-up. You're talking about a live service MMO, not a Steam indie roguelike. You don't just upload it and hope the PayPal notifications roll in. I guess servers are free, staff don't need to eat, and somehow Unity subscriptions pay themselves. You think five thousand subs is keeping an MMO afloat in 2025? Buddy, that wouldn't even cover the AWS bill for a moderately active Discord bot. Even a modest online world requires persistent hosting, active moderation, support staff, ongoing patching, QA, accounting, legal compliance, content updates, and some form of marketing to avoid vanishing into algorithm hell.

What do you mean by, "Operating costs are split between members"? What, like they’re taking turns paying the power bill?

The "you must work for a competitor" line is the chef's kiss, even though I know you're probably just trolling. Yeah, that's it. I'm secretly on Blizzard's payroll to infiltrate your indie nostalgia bubble and warn you that math exists. Nobody's "afraid of competition." We're just laughing at the idea that 5K subs is the sustainable model for a live MMO in 2025. You can't cope your way out of basic economics. But hey, maybe that'll be MnM's next innovation.
Smithy said:
I don't know wtf is wrong with you if you actually think 5k accounts isn't enough to keep the lights on with positive cash flow, the games where that isn't the case are games with large development costs and significant debt from development, not maintenance. I mean ffs, there are currently 16 players online for AO at this very moment, the total active player base is around 300, and that's just one of many tiny MMOs still active with the lights on, so stop making up delusional bullshit with no basis in reality. It's been clearly demonstrated that keeping the lights on is a variable cost, and one that can be done with even the tiniest of playerbases, much, much smaller than 5k.
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You're comparing apples to moldy oranges. AO isn't a functional MMO by any modern metric. It's a digital ghost town sitting on depreciated infrastructure that's long since paid off. Keeping that online is basically paying the water bill on a condemned building.

MnM isn't some ancient, amortized codebase like AO. It's a live project built on modern servers, modern tools, modern dependencies, and (presumably) a staff who'd like to get paid something more than "good vibes and free exposure." Comparing that to a fossil like Anarchy Online is laughable. And even then, AO isn't thriving. It's under a brand owned by Funcom, whose other projects subsidize its existence. "Keeping the lights on" is not the same as "healthy live service." You can technically keep an MMO alive with 300 players if you gut staff, kill updates, and run it as a hobby server. But the second you promise ongoing development, QA, content, or marketing? You've already blown past the 5K fantasy.

But I'll play along... where exactly is this mythical "5K subs = sustainability" number coming from? What financial model are you basing that on? Because unless someone's sitting on actual figures for development costs, infrastructure, payroll, server upkeep, taxes, legal, and content cadence (not just vague nostalgia math), this 5K number feels completely arbitrary. You don't just point at a spreadsheet in your head and decide that 5,000 players paying $15/month magically covers everything a live MMO requires in 2025.

So yeah, I'd genuinely love to see the source for this. Because every "small but healthy" MMO that's tried to sustain itself at that scale - Embers Adrift, Chronicles of Elyria, Pantheon, etc. either pivoted, collapsed, or started begging for microtransactions before the first year was out.

Show your work.
 
D

Drapdis

13
9
Kirun said:
That's a nice fairytale, but the "you make game, you sell game, you make money" model hasn't existed since dial-up. You're talking about a live service MMO, not a Steam indie roguelike. You don't just upload it and hope the PayPal notifications roll in. I guess servers are free, staff don't need to eat, and somehow Unity subscriptions pay themselves. You think five thousand subs is keeping an MMO afloat in 2025? Buddy, that wouldn't even cover the AWS bill for a moderately active Discord bot. Even a modest online world requires persistent hosting, active moderation, support staff, ongoing patching, QA, accounting, legal compliance, content updates, and some form of marketing to avoid vanishing into algorithm hell.

What do you mean by, "Operating costs are split between members"? What, like they’re taking turns paying the power bill?

The "you must work for a competitor" line is the chef's kiss, even though I know you're probably just trolling. Yeah, that's it. I'm secretly on Blizzard's payroll to infiltrate your indie nostalgia bubble and warn you that math exists. Nobody's "afraid of competition." We're just laughing at the idea that 5K subs is the sustainable model for a live MMO in 2025. You can't cope your way out of basic economics. But hey, maybe that'll be MnM's next innovation.

You're comparing apples to moldy oranges. AO isn't a functional MMO by any modern metric. It's a digital ghost town sitting on depreciated infrastructure that's long since paid off. Keeping that online is basically paying the water bill on a condemned building.

MnM isn't some ancient, amortized codebase like AO. It's a live project built on modern servers, modern tools, modern dependencies, and (presumably) a staff who'd like to get paid something more than "good vibes and free exposure." Comparing that to a fossil like Anarchy Online is laughable. And even then, AO isn't thriving. It's under a brand owned by Funcom, whose other projects subsidize its existence. "Keeping the lights on" is not the same as "healthy live service." You can technically keep an MMO alive with 300 players if you gut staff, kill updates, and run it as a hobby server. But the second you promise ongoing development, QA, content, or marketing? You've already blown past the 5K fantasy.

But I'll play along... where exactly is this mythical "5K subs = sustainability" number coming from? What financial model are you basing that on? Because unless someone's sitting on actual figures for development costs, infrastructure, payroll, server upkeep, taxes, legal, and content cadence (not just vague nostalgia math), this 5K number feels completely arbitrary. You don't just point at a spreadsheet in your head and decide that 5,000 players paying $15/month magically covers everything a live MMO requires in 2025.

So yeah, I'd genuinely love to see the source for this. Because every "small but healthy" MMO that's tried to sustain itself at that scale - Embers Adrift, Chronicles of Elyria, Pantheon, etc. either pivoted, collapsed, or started begging for microtransactions before the first year was out.

Show your work.
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Didn’t do a full read but I did a quick skim and see you asking about their payroll.

You cannot even be bothered to read up on their server infrastructure and pay structure. It won’t be an issue. You are literally just arguing with any post just for argument sake. You are a training dummy.

Uh, I’m thinking you blocked honey.
 
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D

Drapdis

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Smithy said:
As much as I hate talking to loser neckbeards and would rather just keep it to chat, I do agree that a built-in voice chat makes sense. Folks can and will just make Discords for dungeon crawls or whatever though, I mean LoL still doesn't have voice chat and folks use Discord all the time in Solo Q games, and I'll join just because I can actually call my teammates retards without getting banned.

Unfortunately, we just aren't in 2003 anymore, for better or worse, and the 2003 way of doing things just doesn't work the same, even if you enjoy it and want things to go back to the way they were. There just needs to be compromises that exist within the realm of acknowledging reality.
Click to expand...
Worst part about voice comms is the realization that the neckbeards have turned into drug addicts. Sounded like 1/3 people on prog servers were addicted to hard drugs, brutal. Keep it to text so I can pretend everyone is well adjusted with a big gaming hobby.
 
Valorath

Valorath

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My buddies and I had a great time during this play test. There are six of us, so clearly that helps. We'd fooled around one of the earliest tests a year or so ago for one night, but that was the extent of our experience going in. I've kept up with this thread, so I had a bit of working knowledge.

This time we dove in big time, playing with all six for a few hours most nights. We explored different grind spots all over in Night Harbor and the neighboring zones and hit the dungeons as much as possible. Played pretty conservative and didn't get into too much trouble, though carelessness and the spirit of adventure definitely got us killed some. We had Cleric, Shaman, Wizard (me), Bard, Monk, and Fighter.

The systems took some getting used to, but that was expected. Someone referred to selling items as town chores before, and I think that pretty well sums it up. Doesn't take long and isn't a big deal once you know who buys what. The spellbook is cool. My brother saved us some hassle early on by having a backup book with IVU and a couple other things in it, made a group wipe a quick recovery. I bought my backup book right afterward.

The dungeons were good experience with nice rewards. I like that they can support players of such differing levels; Wyrmsbane for instance can be started at 4 and the stuff at the bottom is 15. The loot was worthwhile, and it felt good when we got the rare drops. Trains are common enough, disruptive and add their own unique element to the dungeon experience. It's definitely satisfying being able to move away from the entrance of the dungeon and get to the higher areas with better loot.

We only had one issue with someone contesting our camp. We didn't have our fire down yet, because we had stragglers and hadn't decided which spot we wanted to sit in. The other group's argument was simply that since we didn't have a fire, we hadn't claimed the camp. So maybe that'll be a thing. We took the higher level camp next door. They couldn't hold theirs, and we wound up with both, which was the idea anyhow.

There seemed to be plenty of places to grind outdoor mobs if you didn't want to do a dungeon for whatever reason. We did lots of Ashira in Sungreet, undead highway area in shaded dunes, the undead outside Ancient Crypt at night, the cemetery in Night Harbor, the quarry. We did plenty of both dungeons and outdoor stuff!

Wizard was neat, got to level 17. The mana management from kill-shots with Arcane Infusion will be a good skill-expression for this class. I liked the different spell lines. Mana efficiency and kill shots are the name of the game. The shock line with the .1s stum/interrupt is baller. Wish my group had been more willing to play with AOE, but I did eventually get a chance in a pug and it was amazing. Not much to say past that, Daidraco was right about the low APM. Very satisfying making the health bars chunk though. Spell costs are a thing, I was not prepared for 11 spells at 16 for 14 silver each.

Played Inquisitor up to level 8. Really liked being able to mez as a tank. Stuff doesn't live long enough at this low level to make the anti-magic stuff worth using. Not sure I even cast the spell speed debuff. This was the tank I was most interested in, and I really liked the control I had in the group. I'm sure the anti-caster stuff is cool when things live a bit longer. At this level interrupts are enough.

Played enchanter to 7. Not much to say here; the charms seemed to stick better in this than I remember in EQ.

Ranger to 7 as well, and here I created the toon in Kelethin or whatever it's called, just wanted to explore this area some on the last day. I liked the Truestrike Aura, think that will be valuable in groups. Didn't try to group up or anything, but seemed like there were some good spots for farming humanoids in this zone. Folks in /ooc saying mobs up to level 20 in the zone.

Twinking is as satisfying as it ever was in EQ. The lifesteal dagger from the bat in the cemetery was great on my ranger, thanks for calling that one out. You can also find Chomper's Tooth on the cook for cheap, people sell it to him by accident when clearing inventory.

Re: grouping - I played on my own a number of times when folks weren't around. Didn't seem to have any issue finding people to partner up with, and any group size seemed to work fine and keep that exp bar moving. Being proactive with the LFG tool worked for me, made a couple groups that way. Admittedly, one was a mess, but we didn't go backwards. Got invited to group a time or two as well just soloing with /lfg on.

Really looking forward to early access. Hopefully there's another playtest before then, cause I'm pretty well hooked.
 
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Drapdis

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Valorath said:
My buddies and I had a great time during this play test. There are six of us, so clearly that helps. We'd fooled around one of the earliest tests a year or so ago for one night, but that was the extent of our experience going in. I've kept up with this thread, so I had a bit of working knowledge.

This time we dove in big time, playing with all six for a few hours most nights. We explored different grind spots all over in Night Harbor and the neighboring zones and hit the dungeons as much as possible. Played pretty conservative and didn't get into too much trouble, though carelessness and the spirit of adventure definitely got us killed some. We had Cleric, Shaman, Wizard (me), Bard, Monk, and Fighter.

The systems took some getting used to, but that was expected. Someone referred to selling items as town chores before, and I think that pretty well sums it up. Doesn't take long and isn't a big deal once you know who buys what. The spellbook is cool. My brother saved us some hassle early on by having a backup book with IVU and a couple other things in it, made a group wipe a quick recovery. I bought my backup book right afterward.

The dungeons were good experience with nice rewards. I like that they can support players of such differing levels; Wyrmsbane for instance can be started at 4 and the stuff at the bottom is 15. The loot was worthwhile, and it felt good when we got the rare drops. Trains are just common enough, disruptive and add their own unique element to the dungeon experience. It's definitely satisfying being able to move away from the entrance of the dungeon and get to the higher areas with better loot.

We only had one issue with someone contesting our camp. We didn't have our fire down yet, because we had stragglers and hadn't decided which spot we wanted to sit in. The other group's argument was simply that since we didn't have a fire, we hadn't claimed the camp. So maybe that'll be a thing. We took the higher level camp next door. They couldn't hold theirs, and we wound up with both, which was the idea anyhow.

There seemed to be plenty of places to grind outdoor mobs if you didn't want to do a dungeon for whatever reason. We did lots of Ashira in Sungreet, undead highway area in shaded dunes, the undead outside Ancient Crypt at night, the cemetery in Night Harbor, the quarry. We did plenty of both dungeons and outdoor stuff!

Wizard was neat, got to level 17. The mana management from kill-shots with Arcane Infusion will be a good skill-expression for this class. I liked the different spell lines. Mana efficiency and kill shots are the name of the game. The shock line with the .1s interrupt is baller. Wish my group had been more willing to play with AOE, but I did eventually get a chance in a pug and it was amazing. Not much to say past that, Daidraco was right about the low APM. Very satisfying making the health bars chunk though. Spell costs are a thing, I was not prepared for 11 spells at 16 for 14 silver each.

Played Inquisitor up to level 8. Really liked being able to mez as a tank. Stuff doesn't live long enough at this low level to make the anti-magic stuff worth using. Not sure I even cast the spell speed debuff. This was the tank I was most interested in, and I really liked the control I had in the group. I'm sure the anti-caster stuff is cool when things live a bit longer. At this level interrupts are enough.

Played enchanter to 7. Not much to say here; the charms seemed to stick better in this than I remember in EQ.

Ranger to 7 as well, and here I created the toon in Kelethin or whatever it's called, just wanted to explore this area some on the last day. I liked the Truestrike Aura, think that will be valuable in groups. Didn't try to group up or anything, but seemed like there were some good spots for farming humanoids in this zone. Folks in /ooc saying mobs up to level 20 in the zone.

Twinking is as satisfying as it ever was in EQ. The lifesteal dagger from the bat in the cemetery was great on my ranger, thanks for calling that one out. You can also find Chomper's Tooth on the cook for cheap, people sell it to him by accident when clearing inventory.

Re: grouping - I played on my own a number of times when folks weren't around. Didn't seem to have any issue finding people to partner up with, and any group size seemed to work fine and keep that exp bar moving. Being proactive with the LFG tool worked for me, made a couple groups that way. Admittedly, one was a mess, but we didn't go backwards. Got invited to group a time or two as well just soloing with /lfg on.

Really looking forward to early access. Hopefully there's another playtest before then, cause I'm pretty well hooked.
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I was surprised people on discord and reddit didn’t like wizard. I enjoyed that the most out of the classes I played. I expected to like necro but I just cannot get behind having two dot lines with one being the snare. Wizard mechanics were pretty fresh feeling compared to eq.
 
Sylas

Sylas

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Drapdis said:
Worst part about voice comms is the realization that the neckbeards have turned into drug addicts. Sounded like 1/3 people on prog servers were addicted to hard drugs, brutal. Keep it to text so I can pretend everyone is well adjusted with a big gaming hobby.
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you just now realizing this? You think we were just joking when we talk about the people games like this are made for are trailer park living on disability checks spending their SNAP money on fudge rounds and percocets?

This is why we should never have banned Mr Sox. He represents the ideal demographic for this game, it was made for people like him and really only his opinion should matter in this thread. I mean if you haven't lost a foot to diabetes are you even a real gamer?

I will offer the devs one piece of advice. If you can somehow code your subscription as some sort of meal delivery service for low income people, scam the government into letting your players pay with EBT cards then you just might be able to hit that elusive 5k sub figure. Otherwise, like I said before, best bet is 10% of what you're pulling while its free to test. You aren't competing with other games for their gaming dollars, you are competing with fentanyl.
 
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Hatorade

Hatorade

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General Antony said:
@Nirgon how do you feel about a first of its kind rated M hardcore fantasy MMO? Website appears to be made from geocities or angelfire so I assume you're in?

chaoscraftgame.com

Chaoscraft

Chaoscraft – Chaoscraft is a first-of-its-kind rated M fantasy MMO. With over 30 new classes and a vast unique universe, it spans the competitive genres of...
chaoscraftgame.com chaoscraftgame.com
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What the actual fuck? Selling early access with no gameplay or even a screenshot. I wonder how many people buy into this kind of shit.

Also WTF with this thread, we need an asked and answered “like” icon. Fucking going in circles.
 
Flobee

Flobee

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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vegetoeeVegetoee said:
Lifesteal Dagger? What cemetary we talkin?
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Flobee said:
Just looted this badboy on my 7 Fighter. I'm an absolute unit now, it procs constantly haha. Feels good! The kind of itemization I love. Go from barely able to solo to crushing whites, 1 drop

View attachment 608288
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Flobee said:
Think it was red to 9 so I would guess 12-13ish. Cemetary in Nightharbor during day. Chunked the healer when they got hit, but I was able to tank it at 7 no problem. Proc is only 5 damage, but I wouldn't be shocked it proc rate was adjusted. Feels good though
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Hekotat

Hekotat

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Hatorade said:
What the actual fuck? Selling early access with no gameplay or even a screenshot. I wonder how many people buy into this kind of shit.

Also WTF with this thread, we need an asked and answered “like” icon. Fucking going in circles.
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I dont get it either. First refreshing non-wow style mmo since EQ, you think they'd all be eager to play and excited to discuss the project. Instead its a bunch of ridiculous complaints from people that want to watch the world burn and cant stop posting the same angry posts over and over again.

Criticizing the game is one thing, but it's reaching ridiculous levels of pure hatred.
 
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Del

Del

Potato del Grande
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Sylas said:
you just now realizing this? You think we were just joking when we talk about the people games like this are made for are trailer park living on disability checks spending their SNAP money on fudge rounds and percocets?

This is why we should never have banned Mr Sox. He represents the ideal demographic for this game, it was made for people like him and really only his opinion should matter in this thread. I mean if you haven't lost a foot to diabetes are you even a real gamer?

I will offer the devs one piece of advice. If you can somehow code your subscription as some sort of meal delivery service for low income people, scam the government into letting your players pay with EBT cards then you just might be able to hit that elusive 5k sub figure. Otherwise, like I said before, best bet is 10% of what you're pulling while its free to test. You aren't competing with other games for their gaming dollars, you are competing with fentanyl.
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Just go back to posting about ceiling heights. That was less pathetically retarded than this.
 
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TomServo

TomServo

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Hekotat said:
I dont get it either. First refreshing non-wow style mmo since EQ, you think they'd all be eager to play and excited to discuss the project. Instead its a bunch of ridiculous complaints from people that want to watch the world burn and cant stop posting the same angry posts over and over again.

Criticizing the game is one thing, but it's reaching ridiculous levels of pure hatred.
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Its endemic to the overall psychology of people at least online here. Such ridiculous utopian thinking that they get some sort of sick fucking dopamine hit.
 
Pharone

Pharone

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You know, for the past couple decades, there have been people on every single MMORPG's forums arguing about how the game should be designed and changed. People are always super hyper focused on making sure their vision of the game gets used by the devs... so much so that it always turns in to personal attacks against anyone that doesn't agree with them.

At the end of the day, every single one of the MMORPGs made in the past two decades have had SOME people that LIKE it and SOME people that HATE it. Not one single one has ever made everyone happy. Not a single one.

What if... hear me out here... What if what you and I say on forums has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of any MMORPG ever made? I mean, history would tend to lean to that being the case.

So... how about we just say what we like and dislike, and leave it up to the devs to deliver the game they're going to deliver no matter what we say or thing because in the end, that's what is going to happen anyway. Why spend the time being such duchebags to one another over a GAME?

If you like MnM, great.

If you don't like MnM, maybe the next game will be to your liking.

It's not like there isn't hundreds of these games coming and going on the market all the time. You don't have to go in to every single new MMORPG development with the mindset of "THIS is the one I will convince the developers to make in MY vision!!!"

Just saying...
 
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vegetoeeVegetoee

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Hekotat said:
I dont get it either. First refreshing non-wow style mmo since EQ, you think they'd all be eager to play and excited to discuss the project. Instead its a bunch of ridiculous complaints from people that want to watch the world burn and cant stop posting the same angry posts over and over again.

Criticizing the game is one thing, but it's reaching ridiculous levels of pure hatred.
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If you understand money, you'll understand why. These "people" invested in and or work for the competition. Hence the weird ass hatred posts void of any logic and substance.
 
Pasteton

Pasteton

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Careful Hekotat Hekotat , you may trigger a novella of rage about why your opinion is wrong and this game will fail so hard it will send us into a recession
 
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Kirun

Kirun

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Hekotat said:
I dont get it either. First refreshing non-wow style mmo since EQ, you think they'd all be eager to play and excited to discuss the project. Instead its a bunch of ridiculous complaints from people that want to watch the world burn and cant stop posting the same angry posts over and over again.

Criticizing the game is one thing, but it's reaching ridiculous levels of pure hatred.
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You guys keep mistaking criticism for malice. Nobody's foaming at the mouth here, they're pointing out design flaws and business realities that people like you refuse to engage with because it disrupts the cozy little nostalgia bubble.

The point of a forum is discussion. If all you want is a cheerleading section, go join their Discord. They'll ban you for asking the same questions you're pretending don't matter here. What's ridiculous isn't people criticizing the game, it's the bizarre assumption that anyone voicing skepticism must "want to watch the world burn."

But the most predictable part of all this? When the game inevitably struggles, when the population craters, when the content cadence slows to a crawl, and when the "niche 5k subs" fantasy collapses under real operating costs, people like you will blame everyone except the design decisions.

Instead, it'll all be the fault of "the haters," the skeptics, and the people who "wanted to watch the world burn." Basically, anyone except the chorus demanding that all criticism be silenced because it made them uncomfortable. It's the same script every doomed nostalgia MMO community runs. Complete and utter refusal to accept that the world (especially the MMO/gaming world) has moved beyond 1999, even though they don't want to.
 
Pharone

Pharone

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Kirun said:
You guys keep mistaking criticism for malice. Nobody's foaming at the mouth here, they're pointing out design flaws and business realities that people like you refuse to engage with because it disrupts the cozy little nostalgia bubble.
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Discussion is fine, but what you (and some others) are doing is presenting your opinions as fact.

For instance, you just said "...they're pointing out design flaws..." That's an opinion and not fact, but you state it as absolute fact.

Game development is art, and art is subjective; not objective. There is no flawed outcome. It is the outcome that the creator chose. That doesn't make it flawed. It simply makes it not to YOUR liking which is a subjective opinion.

You keep stating your opinions as fact and insinuating that anybody that disagrees with your opinions is a moron. That's the issue.

You don't like the way the game is designed. Fine. You are absolutely allowed (just like everyone else here) to have your opinion no matter what it that opinion may be. Your opinion of the design does not in any way make define the success nor failure of the design. It's just your personal opinion of the design.
 
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