Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Valorath said:

Gotcha. So there's no skill in this game, nothing to differentiate one player from another. /played = power. That's totally the type of game I want to pay a monthly sub for and engage in daily. As long as my time played is equal to theirs, I'll be equally as good. Fuck yea. Nothing could be more satisfying.

Hopefully I can just come home from work, /login, then if I can’t get a group I’ll just /exp. As long as i /spend (enough time) I’ll be as good as everyone else.

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Taken from their website… if you’re looking for some sort of super high skill ceiling high APM game this probably isn’t the one for you


Simple, Deliberate Gameplay

• Simple, streamlined, strategic combat; reminiscent of classic era MMOs
• Slower gameplay and progression pacing
  
  

bolok said:

Seems like trolls and high elves in module 2 according to zbrushed. So maybe lizards and dd last?

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Man High Elf v Troll storylines would be such a nice departure from the norm of High Elf v Dark Elf. I hope they go that direction.

Kithani said:

Taken from their website… if you’re looking for some sort of super high skill ceiling high APM game this probably isn’t the one for you


Simple, Deliberate Gameplay

• Simple, streamlined, strategic combat; reminiscent of classic era MMOs
• Slower gameplay and progression pacing
  

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I didn't say anything about a super high skill ceiling or high APM. Is last hitting with the right amount of damage a high skill ceiling? There is no punishment for not last-hitting with your spells, you're just not rewarded with the mana refund. That's a simple and deliberate choice.

Standing to auto before casting isn't high APM. It's different than EQ wizard, for sure, but we're not pressing a button every 1.5s here like WoW, weaving in oGCD abilities and maximizing uptimes. Just hit Q a few seconds before you hit 1. Or don't, your group probably won't notice. Have you guys played this game? Camped in a dungeon around a campfire? The only person doing high APM is the person pulling.

Quaid said:

Man High Elf v Troll storylines would be such a nice departure from the norm of High Elf v Dark Elf. I hope they go that direction.

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Well DE and DG is already in the barrel as it were, so DE vs HE isn't likely to be a concern initially. There are some lore teasers in loading screens and such, but we'll have to see how it shakes out overall.

I agree though. Trolls vs HE seems like a pretty good opportunity for a plot line. Not sure that the modules are necessarily story driven. But I like it conceptually.

Valorath said:

I didn't say anything about a super high skill ceiling or high APM. Is last hitting with the right amount of damage a high skill ceiling? There is no punishment for not last-hitting with your spells, you're just not rewarded with the mana refund. That's a simple and deliberate choice.

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Min max brain would disagree. Not getting the refund is exactly the punishment.

bolok said:

Well DE and DG is already in the barrel as it were, so DE vs HE isn't likely to be a concern initially. There are some lore teasers in loading screens and such, but we'll have to see how it shakes out overall.

I agree though. Trolls vs HE seems like a pretty good opportunity for a plot line. Not sure that the modules are necessarily story driven. But I like it conceptually.

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Ya i was just thinking ‘maybe their cities are close geographically’ and the module just represents a contiguous group of zones. If they’re close geographically maybe they’d be each other’s primary foe.

bolok said:

Min max brain would disagree. Not getting the refund is exactly the punishment.

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Right. But we're looking for simple and deliberate gameplay here, not high APM high skill ceiling stuff.

Simply press the right button at the right time, maybe even deliberate for a moment before pressing button. Get rewarded. Or I guess you could just not do that, just hit biggest number button every time, hope for the best. That works too.

Valorath said:

So, I am legitimately curious: how do wizards express skill in this type of game?

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The thing about this question is that it accidentally exposes the entire problem with these "old-school systems = amazing depth" arguments. Because you're right to ask how a Wizard expresses skill in a game like MnM and the the uncomfortable answer is the same as it was for EQ: they really don't. And not because players lack skill (although those that do lack skill often gravitate toward "lazy" classes like Wizard - same as EQ), but because the systems themselves don't allow for it.

In a combat model built around long casts, low APM, predictable rotations, and minimal reactive tools, the ceiling for individual expression is microscopic. In EQ-style design, two wizards of roughly equal gear and level are going to perform within 5% of each other simply because there's nothing in the kit that lets skill differentiate them. And in 2025, people are just going to Autohotkey or AutoIt their "rotations" in a game like this, where combat is so predictable that you can run your script while watching Netflix.

There's no weaving, no animation cancels, no positional optimization, no resource manipulation, minimal-no proc fishing, minimal-no reactive mechanics, no priority systems, no burst windows - nothing that separates a "good" Wizard who's attentive and at his keyboard from a warm body mashing his script every cooldown. The "skill" in these systems is basically: Don't over-aggro. Don't go OOM. And don't fall asleep. And somehow this gets mythologized as "high-skill old school gameplay."

The problem is the system. These combat engines were built in 1999 when "press nuke, sit, wait, repeat" was considered cutting-edge. There's simply no room for mastery when the mechanics themselves are shallow. A skilled player can't express anything in a system that never asks them to. That's why this whole nostalgia push is so weird. People keep pretending these mechanics were deep when they were really just primitive.

Right now, asking "how does a wizard show skill?" is basically asking "how does someone show mastery at microwaving a Hot Pocket?" There's only so much you can do with a one-button oven.

Kirun said:

And in 2025, people are just going to Autohotkey or AutoIt their "rotations" in a game like this, where combat is so predictable that you can run your script while watching Netflix.

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I think this kind of captures the modern day problem with EQ style gameplay. EQ was always mostly about the social aspect, and I’ve seen it (accurately) described as basically a virtual chat room many times. But whereas back in 1999 you had the novelty of a digital world keeping you engaged and more likely to socialize, now that novelty is gone and you have a million more distractions like Netflix, multiple monitors etc. I still think this style of game has an audience for people who mostly want a chill, social game with some carrot dangling/pixels, and I think a smaller community is conducive to that. In my own experience, today’s players on emus (smaller community, but also gameplay requiring more cooperation and communication) are more likely to chat in a group for example than in WoW, but definitely not to the extent that they did 25 years ago. I think the devs should be focusing on ways to encourage cooperation and socialization more than the intricacies of gameplay, or gameplay that’s less about APM and more conducive to socialization/cooperation, for a game like this.

I think the devs are focused on encouraging cooperation and socialization. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe otherwise.

Quaid asked how people felt about playing Wizard. I've played one, I responded with my experience from playing the game during the last play test. If casting an appropriate damage nuke at the right time to execute the enemy and refund mana is too much to ask of players, I don't know what our options are to make wizards in this type of game more fun or engaging.

Valorath said:

I think the devs are focused on encouraging cooperation. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe otherwise.

Quaid asked how people felt about playing Wizard. I've played one, I responded with my experience from playing the game during the last play test. If casting an appropriate damage nuke at the right time to execute the enemy and refund mana is too much to ask of players, I don't know what our options are to make wizards in this type of game more fun or engaging.

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I haven’t played it or followed this thread super closely, so that’s great to hear. I think strategic timing is a fine way to make wizards more engaging. I’d be more concerned about finding ways to make wizards more desirable for groups so no class is pigeonholed as a speciality raid/solo class. Again, not super up to date on MnM so they may already be doing this.

Edit: Just remembered the discussion was about them meleeing to put a debuff that makes all magic more effective against the mob so that sounds like great group benefit. The standing and sitting for ticks and required movement doesn’t sound great though.

Valorath said:

Right. But we're looking for simple and deliberate gameplay here, not high APM high skill ceiling stuff.

Simply press the right button at the right time, maybe even deliberate for a moment before pressing button. Get rewarded. Or I guess you could just not do that, just hit biggest number button every time, hope for the best. That works too.

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High apm doesn't even come into it. You can have low apm punishing gameplay too. While i think the execute mana return is really cool- min maxers are gonna rage when it doesn't trigger. Oops the spellblade's procs window refreshed at the wrong time, and he smoked the last 10% of the mobs hp. REEE you cost me 40 seconds of med time worth of mana.

Whole hoards of people have brain fucked themselves into degenerate efficiency loops as a marker of good game play. While I think for the wizard specifically, showing mastery of the class would be probably be solo shenanigans using the full toolkit. Group game play is semi expected to be pretty low impact. If you aren't a total leech- you will eventually pull off a clutch group save or 2. That's not really any different than any other class though. Being actually in melee range and hitting buttons isn't any more impressive than knowing when to med and when to cast imo.

I think wow style challenge towers would be apropos too.

Valorath said:

I think the devs are focused on encouraging cooperation and socialization. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe otherwise.

Quaid asked how people felt about playing Wizard. I've played one, I responded with my experience from playing the game during the last play test. If casting an appropriate damage nuke at the right time to execute the enemy and refund mana is too much to ask of players, I don't know what our options are to make wizards in this type of game more fun or engaging.

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I think i misunderstood where you were going. I don't think anyone is complaining about about the refund nukes. If anything- people want wizards to be less engaging. As it is currently, the melee, get buff and try to nuke at the right time for the refund, while also sitting for med ticks... is way more than people historically interested in wizard gameplay want to engage with.

Quaid said:

Couple questions for folks who have played a bunch recently:

How are the priests healing effectiveness comparing to each other these days?

Is charm as OP as everyone whines about?

The Wizard melee stuff seems to be real controversial. Are they sticking with that?

Is there a global chat channel? It’s been a while and i can’t recall.

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All priests can be main healer, it is the other stuff they bring. Also cleric can go invulnerable and still do damage, can make others invulnerable as well as a flat damage rune. Druids charm animal also works on spiders and the like. Can go fairly ham if you have the mana.

Hatorade said:

All priests can be main healer, it is the other stuff they bring. Also cleric can go invulnerable and still do damage, can make others invulnerable as well as a flat damage rune. Druids charm animal also works on spiders and the like. Can go fairly ham if you have the mana.

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To add onto this. Clerics also get a damage soak bubble that is insta cast and not on the global recast timer (still has it's own short timer). So they should be the "best" healer, but not by that large of a margin. Which is needed, since the other two get stronger utility in haste(shm), SoW(shm/dru), snare(dru), AE lull(dru), and better nukes(dru). Slow should come into play at higher levels as well.

Snare is super important for small groups taking on humanoids.

bolok said:

I think i misunderstood where you were going. I don't think anyone is complaining about about the refund nukes. If anything- people want wizards to be less engaging. As it is currently, the melee, get buff and try to nuke at the right time for the refund, while also sitting for med ticks... is way more than people historically interested in wizard gameplay want to engage with.

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That’s fine, I guess if being slightly engaged is asking too much for “people historically interested in wizard,” they can play Elementalist: summon water pet for team mana regen, nuke every now and then (nobody will notice anyway, we’re all disengaged ), team loves you cause of +mana. All you have to do is press attack on your pet bar (express skill by making sure you have the right thing targeted), supply mana buff, get exp.