Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,841
2,588
Gotcha. So there's no skill in this game, nothing to differentiate one player from another. /played = power. That's totally the type of game I want to pay a monthly sub for and engage in daily. As long as my time played is equal to theirs, I'll be equally as good. Fuck yea. Nothing could be more satisfying.

Hopefully I can just come home from work, /login, then if I can’t get a group I’ll just /exp. As long as i /spend (enough time) I’ll be as good as everyone else.
Taken from their website… if you’re looking for some sort of super high skill ceiling high APM game this probably isn’t the one for you


Simple, Deliberate Gameplay

  • Simple, streamlined, strategic combat; reminiscent of classic era MMOs
  • Slower gameplay and progression pacing

 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,267
7,731
Seems like trolls and high elves in module 2 according to zbrushed. So maybe lizards and dd last?

Man High Elf v Troll storylines would be such a nice departure from the norm of High Elf v Dark Elf. I hope they go that direction.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Valorath

Vyemm Raider
1,294
2,575
Taken from their website… if you’re looking for some sort of super high skill ceiling high APM game this probably isn’t the one for you


Simple, Deliberate Gameplay

  • Simple, streamlined, strategic combat; reminiscent of classic era MMOs
  • Slower gameplay and progression pacing

I didn't say anything about a super high skill ceiling or high APM. Is last hitting with the right amount of damage a high skill ceiling? There is no punishment for not last-hitting with your spells, you're just not rewarded with the mana refund. That's a simple and deliberate choice.

Standing to auto before casting isn't high APM. It's different than EQ wizard, for sure, but we're not pressing a button every 1.5s here like WoW, weaving in oGCD abilities and maximizing uptimes. Just hit Q a few seconds before you hit 1. Or don't, your group probably won't notice. Have you guys played this game? Camped in a dungeon around a campfire? The only person doing high APM is the person pulling.
 

bolok

Trakanon Raider
1,310
726
Man High Elf v Troll storylines would be such a nice departure from the norm of High Elf v Dark Elf. I hope they go that direction.
Well DE and DG is already in the barrel as it were, so DE vs HE isn't likely to be a concern initially. There are some lore teasers in loading screens and such, but we'll have to see how it shakes out overall.

I agree though. Trolls vs HE seems like a pretty good opportunity for a plot line. Not sure that the modules are necessarily story driven. But I like it conceptually.
 

bolok

Trakanon Raider
1,310
726
I didn't say anything about a super high skill ceiling or high APM. Is last hitting with the right amount of damage a high skill ceiling? There is no punishment for not last-hitting with your spells, you're just not rewarded with the mana refund. That's a simple and deliberate choice.
Min max brain would disagree. Not getting the refund is exactly the punishment.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,267
7,731
Well DE and DG is already in the barrel as it were, so DE vs HE isn't likely to be a concern initially. There are some lore teasers in loading screens and such, but we'll have to see how it shakes out overall.

I agree though. Trolls vs HE seems like a pretty good opportunity for a plot line. Not sure that the modules are necessarily story driven. But I like it conceptually.

Ya i was just thinking ‘maybe their cities are close geographically’ and the module just represents a contiguous group of zones. If they’re close geographically maybe they’d be each other’s primary foe.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Valorath

Vyemm Raider
1,294
2,575
Min max brain would disagree. Not getting the refund is exactly the punishment.
Right. But we're looking for simple and deliberate gameplay here, not high APM high skill ceiling stuff.

Simply press the right button at the right time, maybe even deliberate for a moment before pressing button. Get rewarded. Or I guess you could just not do that, just hit biggest number button every time, hope for the best. That works too.
 
Last edited:

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,890
17,762
So, I am legitimately curious: how do wizards express skill in this type of game?
The thing about this question is that it accidentally exposes the entire problem with these "old-school systems = amazing depth" arguments. Because you're right to ask how a Wizard expresses skill in a game like MnM and the the uncomfortable answer is the same as it was for EQ: they really don't. And not because players lack skill (although those that do lack skill often gravitate toward "lazy" classes like Wizard - same as EQ), but because the systems themselves don't allow for it.

In a combat model built around long casts, low APM, predictable rotations, and minimal reactive tools, the ceiling for individual expression is microscopic. In EQ-style design, two wizards of roughly equal gear and level are going to perform within 5% of each other simply because there's nothing in the kit that lets skill differentiate them. And in 2025, people are just going to Autohotkey or AutoIt their "rotations" in a game like this, where combat is so predictable that you can run your script while watching Netflix.

There's no weaving, no animation cancels, no positional optimization, no resource manipulation, minimal-no proc fishing, minimal-no reactive mechanics, no priority systems, no burst windows - nothing that separates a "good" Wizard who's attentive and at his keyboard from a warm body mashing his script every cooldown. The "skill" in these systems is basically: Don't over-aggro. Don't go OOM. And don't fall asleep. And somehow this gets mythologized as "high-skill old school gameplay."

The problem is the system. These combat engines were built in 1999 when "press nuke, sit, wait, repeat" was considered cutting-edge. There's simply no room for mastery when the mechanics themselves are shallow. A skilled player can't express anything in a system that never asks them to. That's why this whole nostalgia push is so weird. People keep pretending these mechanics were deep when they were really just primitive.

Right now, asking "how does a wizard show skill?" is basically asking "how does someone show mastery at microwaving a Hot Pocket?" There's only so much you can do with a one-button oven.
 

Ether

Lord Nagafen Raider
104
29
And in 2025, people are just going to Autohotkey or AutoIt their "rotations" in a game like this, where combat is so predictable that you can run your script while watching Netflix.
I think this kind of captures the modern day problem with EQ style gameplay. EQ was always mostly about the social aspect, and I’ve seen it (accurately) described as basically a virtual chat room many times. But whereas back in 1999 you had the novelty of a digital world keeping you engaged and more likely to socialize, now that novelty is gone and you have a million more distractions like Netflix, multiple monitors etc. I still think this style of game has an audience for people who mostly want a chill, social game with some carrot dangling/pixels, and I think a smaller community is conducive to that. In my own experience, today’s players on emus (smaller community, but also gameplay requiring more cooperation and communication) are more likely to chat in a group for example than in WoW, but definitely not to the extent that they did 25 years ago. I think the devs should be focusing on ways to encourage cooperation and socialization more than the intricacies of gameplay, or gameplay that’s less about APM and more conducive to socialization/cooperation, for a game like this.
 

Valorath

Vyemm Raider
1,294
2,575
I think the devs are focused on encouraging cooperation and socialization. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe otherwise.

Quaid asked how people felt about playing Wizard. I've played one, I responded with my experience from playing the game during the last play test. If casting an appropriate damage nuke at the right time to execute the enemy and refund mana is too much to ask of players, I don't know what our options are to make wizards in this type of game more fun or engaging.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Ether

Lord Nagafen Raider
104
29
I think the devs are focused on encouraging cooperation. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe otherwise.

Quaid asked how people felt about playing Wizard. I've played one, I responded with my experience from playing the game during the last play test. If casting an appropriate damage nuke at the right time to execute the enemy and refund mana is too much to ask of players, I don't know what our options are to make wizards in this type of game more fun or engaging.
I haven’t played it or followed this thread super closely, so that’s great to hear. I think strategic timing is a fine way to make wizards more engaging. I’d be more concerned about finding ways to make wizards more desirable for groups so no class is pigeonholed as a speciality raid/solo class. Again, not super up to date on MnM so they may already be doing this.

Edit: Just remembered the discussion was about them meleeing to put a debuff that makes all magic more effective against the mob so that sounds like great group benefit. The standing and sitting for ticks and required movement doesn’t sound great though.
 

bolok

Trakanon Raider
1,310
726
Right. But we're looking for simple and deliberate gameplay here, not high APM high skill ceiling stuff.

Simply press the right button at the right time, maybe even deliberate for a moment before pressing button. Get rewarded. Or I guess you could just not do that, just hit biggest number button every time, hope for the best. That works too.
High apm doesn't even come into it. You can have low apm punishing gameplay too. While i think the execute mana return is really cool- min maxers are gonna rage when it doesn't trigger. Oops the spellblade's procs window refreshed at the wrong time, and he smoked the last 10% of the mobs hp. REEE you cost me 40 seconds of med time worth of mana.

Whole hoards of people have brain fucked themselves into degenerate efficiency loops as a marker of good game play. While I think for the wizard specifically, showing mastery of the class would be probably be solo shenanigans using the full toolkit. Group game play is semi expected to be pretty low impact. If you aren't a total leech- you will eventually pull off a clutch group save or 2. That's not really any different than any other class though. Being actually in melee range and hitting buttons isn't any more impressive than knowing when to med and when to cast imo.

I think wow style challenge towers would be apropos too.
 

bolok

Trakanon Raider
1,310
726
I think the devs are focused on encouraging cooperation and socialization. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe otherwise.

Quaid asked how people felt about playing Wizard. I've played one, I responded with my experience from playing the game during the last play test. If casting an appropriate damage nuke at the right time to execute the enemy and refund mana is too much to ask of players, I don't know what our options are to make wizards in this type of game more fun or engaging.
I think i misunderstood where you were going. I don't think anyone is complaining about about the refund nukes. If anything- people want wizards to be less engaging. As it is currently, the melee, get buff and try to nuke at the right time for the refund, while also sitting for med ticks... is way more than people historically interested in wizard gameplay want to engage with.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Hatorade

A nice asshole.
9,106
8,463
Couple questions for folks who have played a bunch recently:

How are the priests healing effectiveness comparing to each other these days?

Is charm as OP as everyone whines about?

The Wizard melee stuff seems to be real controversial. Are they sticking with that?

Is there a global chat channel? It’s been a while and i can’t recall.
All priests can be main healer, it is the other stuff they bring. Also cleric can go invulnerable and still do damage, can make others invulnerable as well as a flat damage rune. Druids charm animal also works on spiders and the like. Can go fairly ham if you have the mana.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Burns

Avatar of War Slayer
8,731
16,860
All priests can be main healer, it is the other stuff they bring. Also cleric can go invulnerable and still do damage, can make others invulnerable as well as a flat damage rune. Druids charm animal also works on spiders and the like. Can go fairly ham if you have the mana.
To add onto this. Clerics also get a damage soak bubble that is insta cast and not on the global recast timer (still has it's own short timer). So they should be the "best" healer, but not by that large of a margin. Which is needed, since the other two get stronger utility in haste(shm), SoW(shm/dru), snare(dru), AE lull(dru), and better nukes(dru). Slow should come into play at higher levels as well.

Snare is super important for small groups taking on humanoids.
 

Valorath

Vyemm Raider
1,294
2,575
I think i misunderstood where you were going. I don't think anyone is complaining about about the refund nukes. If anything- people want wizards to be less engaging. As it is currently, the melee, get buff and try to nuke at the right time for the refund, while also sitting for med ticks... is way more than people historically interested in wizard gameplay want to engage with.

That’s fine, I guess if being slightly engaged is asking too much for “people historically interested in wizard,” they can play Elementalist: summon water pet for team mana regen, nuke every now and then (nobody will notice anyway, we’re all disengaged ), team loves you cause of +mana. All you have to do is press attack on your pet bar (express skill by making sure you have the right thing targeted), supply mana buff, get exp.
 
  • 1Hodjing
Reactions: 1 user

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,890
17,762
I think this kind of captures the modern day problem with EQ style gameplay. EQ was always mostly about the social aspect, and I’ve seen it (accurately) described as basically a virtual chat room many times. But whereas back in 1999 you had the novelty of a digital world keeping you engaged and more likely to socialize, now that novelty is gone and you have a million more distractions like Netflix, multiple monitors etc. I still think this style of game has an audience for people who mostly want a chill, social game with some carrot dangling/pixels, and I think a smaller community is conducive to that. In my own experience, today’s players on emus (smaller community, but also gameplay requiring more cooperation and communication) are more likely to chat in a group for example than in WoW, but definitely not to the extent that they did 25 years ago. I think the devs should be focusing on ways to encourage cooperation and socialization more than the intricacies of gameplay, or gameplay that’s less about APM and more conducive to socialization/cooperation, for a game like this.
You've pretty much nailed the core tension of EQ-style design in 2025. The original game worked as a "virtual chat room with mobs" because the mere act of being online together was novel. People were blown away just seeing a dwarf run across the screen. That novelty did half the social heavy lifting for the developers. But in 2025, all that scaffolding is gone. The behavioral ecosystem players lived in back then simply doesn't exist anymore, which people still can't seem to come to terms with.

Now people have Discord servers, Netflix on monitor two, YouTube guides on monitor three, and five ongoing group chats pinging on their phone. Social energy is already fragmented before they ever log in. So if you want a modern audience to socialize organically, you have to design for it, not just assume downtime or "slow, chill gameplay" will "bring people together” like it did in 1999.

And you're absolutely right that there is still an audience for chill, low-APM, socially oriented MMOs. But the key is acknowledging that EQ-style socialization doesn't just happen automatically anymore. If the game expects players to recreate 1999 behaviors without giving them modern tools or modern incentives, it's setting itself up for disappointment.

The whole "virtual chat room with mobs" model can still exist today, it just won't by trying to recreate the conditions of 1999. You have to recreate the outcomes intentionally. EQ gave players socialization by accident, because of the era it was born in. The audience for this kind of game is tiny because it's relying on recreating a feeling that came from an era that literally no longer exists. You can design systems that encourage socialization, but you can't resurrect the pre-internet novelty that made EQ's slow crawl feel magical instead of monotonous. That spark is gone, and nostalgia can only paper over that loss for so long.

And the real danger is that a lot of people think what they're chasing is "old-school gameplay", but they're actually chasing old-school youth. One of those can be recreated with clever design. The other can't. And that's the part that worries me about this game. So many of these "old school" projects aren't building for the players and systems of today. They're building for a memory of players from 25 years ago. That's a beautiful sentiment, but it’s also a shaky foundation if the entire experience depends on behaviors that the modern audience simply doesn't exhibit anymore. And as much as we all like to pretend we're the same gamers we were 25 years ago, we aren't, no matter how much we bemoan wanting a "chill, low-apm" vibe, "grouping to matter", "long travel times", etc. You definitely aren't the same person you were 25 years ago, why the hell would you assume you consume games and social structures in the same way?
 
  • 4Like
Reactions: 3 users

Daidraco

Avatar of War Slayer
10,975
11,782
Games designed around resource management imo. Even though I like the idea of a burn phase for NPC's - I think it goes against the theme of any wizard Ive ever heard of - to leave their mana up to "chance." The way its implemented encourages Wizards that are trying to conserve mana to wait until the mob is almost dead before nuking. Id rather the game not actively encourage that playstyle.

Any of us here could come up with ways a Wizard could make their own burn phase. Much in the way Gandalf says "A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to."

I really enjoyed the Legion style Shadow Priest in WoW where casting spells rewarded you by allowing you to cast more spells, quicker, and quicker, and quicker until you couldnt keep up (and died. Surrender to Madness.) Personally, I think that is a Wizard's type of gameplay. More so that casting spells drives them into a state of being Power Hungry. A single spell here and there is nothing and feeds back into their mana (over a short duration). But casting that same spell over, and over, again - leads to an "overload" and gives them only "some" of their mana back, but now they have a TON of spell haste and can go off GUNS A' BLAZIN'. Wait, whats the drawback? THE DRAWBACK is that aggro is a very real thing in this game and even though Wizards are very powerful, they cant take a hit - remember?

But again, if last hitting is left as is .. Itll be "lazy" .. but I wont necessarily care. With my experience in Unity and C#, and watching the guts of the system at work with Nick's stream on Bard abilities - I could design the hell out of a Wizard and still keep it balanced. But this whole conversation is just one big complaint between all of us, anyways.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Tol

Trakanon Raider
12
11
You've pretty much nailed the core tension of EQ-style design in 2025. The original game worked as a "virtual chat room with mobs" because the mere act of being online together was novel. People were blown away just seeing a dwarf run across the screen. That novelty did half the social heavy lifting for the developers. But in 2025, all that scaffolding is gone. The behavioral ecosystem players lived in back then simply doesn't exist anymore, which people still can't seem to come to terms with.

Now people have Discord servers, Netflix on monitor two, YouTube guides on monitor three, and five ongoing group chats pinging on their phone. Social energy is already fragmented before they ever log in. So if you want a modern audience to socialize organically, you have to design for it, not just assume downtime or "slow, chill gameplay" will "bring people together” like it did in 1999.

This is kind of it, I think. I remember we had people just sitting around in-game in nexus/PoK/ec tunnel socializing in guild chat all day. Now every game I play has people in like 5 discord servers related to the game with like 20 channels that are all topically segregated so people can post what they had for breakfast or are listening to and theyre usually more active in discord than the game itself. I don't think it can ever really go back to what their nostalgia was because the socialization is too fragmented and easily accessible now. We always had IRC or whatever, but discord feels like a different beast.

At some point I wouldn't be surprised if discord itself starts rolling out their own chat-based rpgs like the old IRC idlers and we just go full circle back into IRC/MUD territory.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Ether

Lord Nagafen Raider
104
29
If they can figure out a sort of Goldilocks gameplay zone to keep players engaged enough that they won’t be so distracted by Discord or Netflix to not engage socially, but not so engaged that they don’t have time to do anything but play their class, I think they will have hit the spot a lot of us are looking for. I think a lot of this is just incentivizing cooperative gameplay so that the socialization is part of the gameplay and not just bullshitting. That breaks the ice for friendships to form and for further non-gameplay related socialization to occur. You don’t even need to pump crazy amounts of content with that balance for the vast majority of players I’d say, because then you’re logging on because the social gameplay in itself is fun and not just to level up or get more pixels.