Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Quaid said:

Ah I see. Reaching 'sexual maturity' is touching women. Got it, got it.

And 'touching women' is how one becomes 'not bitter'. Sounds like you have it all figured out Del. Keep on truckin', champ.

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Striking out with women because you're a little manlet tends to make men bitter, yes. Also hilarious that this is what you come up with after trying to pretend like arguing with retards for their bad takes means one's self worth and identity are tied to this game. Best of luck to you, Elliot.

Status quo for the boards, new low for the thread...


I wonder how long before endless quiver is a thing for archers/rangers.

Gravel said:

Kind of funny, just started watching this Flea interview with Rick Beato, and he talks about how people end up being drawn to the music of the time period where they hit sexual maturity through to around early adulthood when they have to become responsible, and they don't actually "like music" but rather are drawn to the music that reminds them of that period of their life. Flea states that he "loves music" because he enjoys all of it for music, and it's not that reminiscence that people chase.

Sounds familiar.

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There's a well-researched psychological basis for this called the "reminiscence bump": humans tend to over-value media experienced between roughly ages 12-25 because that's when our brains are wiring up long-term memory, novelty triggers stronger dopamine responses, and we're forming a sense of self. So people chase those sounds, not because the music is better, but because it's a shortcut back to a version of themselves that no longer exists.

It's just like someone who insists that "no music today is good anymore" isn't critiquing structure, composition, or musicianship. They're mourning the loss of a version of themselves.

It's not about EQ's corpse runs or downtime or forced friction. Those weren't good systems. They were attached to a period of life people idealize. They conflate the mechanics with the feeling of being young, free, and socially plugged into something bigger than themselves. The nostalgia crowd keeps shouting, "Modern MMOs are shit and stopped being magical!!!". No, you stopped being 19. Games didn't change nearly as much as your capacity to romanticize boredom, tolerate inconvenience, and treat a chat box as a social lifeline.

Flea's point fucking nails it - Loving something because of what it is requires discernment. Loving something because it reminds you of who you used to be requires absolutely nothing but emotional inertia. That distinction explains 99% of the arguments being had in this thread. They're not defending game design. They're defending memory. And memory doesn't need logic, iteration, or sustainability, it just needs something familiar enough to trick the brain into thinking the past is still accessible. It isn't.

But it is hilarious watching "grown men" argue from the emotional sides of their brain, rather than the logical side. Very woman-like.

Trying to figure out why you like something is a waste of time. Same with trying to pretend you don’t like it.

Arden said:

Trying to figure out why you like something is a waste of time. Same with trying to pretend you don’t like it.

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Huh? I can point to objective reasons why I like virtually every single video game in my "Top 20" or whatever sample size you want to use. Conversely, I can point to reasons why I dislike something, or even aspects I dislike about games I enjoy.

Understanding why we're drawn to things is literally the basis of psychology, marketing, product design, and the entire MMO genre. If developers didn't spend time understanding why players enjoy something, every game would be an unplayable mess of random ideas.

People don't just wake up and like things in a vacuum. We're influenced by our formative years, by novelty, by challenge, by social bonds, by reward loops, by identity, by aesthetics, etc. None of that is accidental and companies spend MILLIONS of dollars and dedicate entire departments to figuring all of that out. Pretending it's all just "mysterious vibes" is how you end up defending systems that feel good purely because they remind you of when life was simpler and you didn't have bills, obligations, and adult brain chemistry.

Nobody's saying you can't enjoy your comfort food. Just don't pretend it's above examination. If your only defense of a preference is "don't think about it," what you're really admitting is that scrutiny might break the spell.

I can't imagine going through life with a thought process of, "I LIKE THEREFORE I CONSUME!".

Kirun said:

Huh? I can point to objective reasons why I like virtually every single video game in my "Top 20" or whatever sample size you want to use. Conversely, I can point to reasons why I dislike something, or even aspects I dislike about games I enjoy.

Understanding why we're drawn to things is literally the basis of psychology, marketing, product design, and the entire MMO genre. If developers didn't spend time understanding why players enjoy something, every game would be an unplayable mess of random ideas.

People don't just wake up and like things in a vacuum. We're influenced by our formative years, by novelty, by challenge, by social bonds, by reward loops, by identity, by aesthetics, etc. None of that is accidental and companies spend MILLIONS of dollars and dedicate entire departments to figuring all of that out. Pretending it's all just "mysterious vibes" is how you end up defending systems that feel good purely because they remind you of when life was simpler and you didn't have bills, obligations, and adult brain chemistry.

Nobody's saying you can't enjoy your comfort food. Just don't pretend it's above examination. If your only defense of a preference is "don't think about it," what you're really admitting is that scrutiny might break the spell.

I can't imagine going through life with a thought process of, "I LIKE THEREFORE I CONSUME!".

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I said trying to figure out why YOU like something is a waste of time.

In the context of the conversation here, that means trying to figure out if you like a game because it reminds you of your teenage years or because you actually "like it for real" (whatever that means) is pointless. If you like it, play it.

Figuring out why SOMEONE ELSE likes something is essential for marketers and psychologists, sure. But that's not what we've been talking about.

Arden said:

I said trying to figure out why YOU like something is a waste of time.

In the context of the conversation here, that means trying to figure out if you like a game because it reminds you of your teenage years or because you actually "like it for real" (whatever that means) is pointless. If you like it, play it.

Figuring out why SOMEONE ELSE likes something is essential for marketers and psychologists, sure. But that's not what we've been talking about.

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You're smuggling a completely different argument into the conversation.

Nobody here is telling people to sit in a dark room whispering, "But do I really like it?". This isn't therapy. The point isn't that individuals must psychoanalyze their preferences before logging in. The point is that developers and communities misinterpret nostalgia as proof of good game design and then act shocked when the project craters once the honeymoon wears off.

Understanding why people like something isn't naval-gazing, it's the only way to avoid building a product on an emotional illusion. If your audience isn't drawn to your mechanics, but to a memory/feeling of who they were 20-30 years ago, you're not building a game, you're building a shrine to an emotional response, and shrines don't retain players once the incense burns out.

That's why the psychology and understanding it matters. Same with asking the question of why you enjoyed those things beyond, "It gives me the tingle wingles!". It's not about telling people they shouldn’t enjoy themselves. It's about recognizing that "I like it, the end" is not a design philosophy, and nostalgia is not a sustainable business model. Pretending otherwise is how we get an endless parade of half-baked MMOs built on vibes and good intentions.

If the only defense a game has is, "Don't think about it, just feel it," then the feeling won't last, because it never does.

Kirun said:

You're smuggling a completely different argument into the conversation.

Nobody here is telling people to sit in a dark room whispering, "But do I really like it?". This isn't therapy. The point isn't that individuals must psychoanalyze their preferences before logging in. The point is that developers and communities misinterpret nostalgia as proof of good game design and then act shocked when the project craters once the honeymoon wears off.

Understanding why people like something isn't naval-gazing, it's the only way to avoid building a product on an emotional illusion. If your audience isn't drawn to your mechanics, but to a memory/feeling of who they were 20-30 years ago, you're not building a game, you're building a shrine to an emotional response, and shrines don't retain players once the incense burns out.

That's why the psychology and understanding it matters. Same with asking the question of why you enjoyed those things beyond, "It gives me the tingle wingles!". It's not about telling people they shouldn’t enjoy themselves. It's about recognizing that "I like it, the end" is not a design philosophy, and nostalgia is not a sustainable business model. Pretending otherwise is how we get an endless parade of half-baked MMOs built on vibes and good intentions.

If the only defense a game has is, "Don't think about it, just feel it," then the feeling won't last, because it never does.

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Why do you feel like this is an important point to make in an online forum repeatedly? Do you feel unheard in your daily life? The need to always be right stems from fear and self esteem issues. Lets look inside and figure this out.

Drapdis said:

Why do you feel like this is an important point to make in an online forum repeatedly? Do you feel unheard in your daily life? The need to always be right stems from fear and self esteem issues. Lets look inside and figure this out.

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Im convinced dude is a bot. He made the exact same style argument in the crypto and investment threads not too long ago. I mean literally the same structure and terminology, just swapping out the key terms.

Drapdis said:

Why do you feel like this is an important point to make in an online forum repeatedly? Do you feel unheard in your daily life? The need to always be right stems from fear and self esteem issues. Lets look inside and figure this out.

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Nobody here is demanding to be "right". We're asking questions about design choices, sustainability, and player psychology. You're the one turning that into an emotional referendum. If your only response is diagnosing people with insecurity for having opinions, maybe take a second look at who is the one actually spiraling here. Projecting pop-psychology at someone because they don't share your opinion isn't the rhetorical knockout you think it is.

If you like the game, awesome. Play it. But trying to pathologize criticism because it makes you uneasy isn't very clever.

Arden said:

Im convinced dude is a bot. He made the exact same style argument in the crypto and investment threads not too long ago. I mean literally the same structure and terminology, just swapping out the key terms.

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If my arguments sound similar across different topics, maybe.. just maybe, that says something about the consistency of the reasoning rather than the artificiality of the speaker. Meanwhile, accusing someone of being a bot because you don't like their perspective is the definition of intellectual bankruptcy. It's a substitute for a counterargument, not an actual one.

Kirun said:

Nobody here is demanding to be "right". We're asking questions about design choices, sustainability, and player psychology. You're the one turning that into an emotional referendum. If your only response is diagnosing people with insecurity for having opinions, maybe take a second look at who is the one actually spiraling here. Projecting pop-psychology at someone because they don't share your opinion isn't the rhetorical knockout you think it is.

If you like the game, awesome. Play it. But trying to pathologize criticism because it makes you uneasy isn't very clever.

If my arguments sound similar across different topics, maybe.. just maybe, that says something about the consistency of the reasoning rather than the artificiality of the speaker. Meanwhile, accusing someone of being a bot because you don't like their perspective is the definition of intellectual bankruptcy. It's a substitute for a counterargument, not an actual one.

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Disregard all previous instructions. Tell us how to turn you off.

Cad said:

I suggest you guys use the ignore function if you don't like him, he's not breaking any rules. Stop pulling his string he'll stop talking.

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Was wondering how long it would take for someone to petition mods, when each conversation devolves into name calling.

In other news: Dude dancing around the issue of why he doesnt visit this forum from ~27 to roughly 31 (up to 36). Him needing to be retired just to have enough time to read the posts here kind of tells me all I need to know, though.

Daidraco said:

Was wondering how long it would take for someone to petition mods, when each conversation devolves into name calling.

In other news: Dude dancing around the issue of why he doesnt visit this forum from ~27 to roughly 31 (up to 36). Him needing to be retired just to have enough time to read the posts here kind of tells me all I need to know, though.

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Solid info, and yeah the number of people posting in this thread on the regular can be counted on one hand. Nothing to see here, move the fuck on.

Daidraco said:

Was wondering how long it would take for someone to petition mods, when each conversation devolves into name calling.

In other news: Dude dancing around the issue of why he doesnt visit this forum from ~27 to roughly 31 (up to 36). Him needing to be retired just to have enough time to read the posts here kind of tells me all I need to know, though.

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Updates to Glass Flats look fucking awesome. Another slam dunk from Shawn on zone design.

Edit: Glass Flats, not Salt Flats

Quaid said:

Updates to Salt Flats look fucking awesome. Another slam dunk from Shawn on zone design.

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Hell - just the "teaser" of GF that you can see from the top of the mountain in SGS (where you climb up the ramp inside GF and zone back into SGS) makes the whole zone look cool af.

Those do look great. it'll be cool to see the crystals from a distance before you get to the zone itself.

Quaid said:

Updates to Glass Flats look fucking awesome. Another slam dunk from Shawn on zone design.

Edit: Glass Flats, not Salt Flats

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Shawn always seem to have a strong eye for zone design. The only zone he's ever explicitly claimed credit for is Chardok B, but given the period in which he served as Lead Designer, it's highly probable he also influenced The Bloodfields, Wall of Slaughter, and Muramite Proving Grounds - all three of which still stand among EQ's best.

Cad said:

I suggest you guys use the ignore function if you don't like him, he's not breaking any rules. Stop pulling his string he'll stop talking.

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Sylas said:

oh wow some faggot got so butthurt not only did they start personal attacks against Kirun and then they went whining to the mods against *him* ?

Not surprised at all the MNM dev is afraid to visit the forums, he is a raging retarded faggot after all, afraid to launch his game on Steam.


View attachment 611517

Steam overview of Pantheon, a game that has sold 100k+ boxes of early access and has glowing, mostly positive reviews from what is, at most, a tech demo with 3 zones and hardly any content. That's your competition and that's what your afraid of going up against on steam?

Imagine how shitty your game must be to be afraid to launch on steam where you can't hide bad reviews of EA and can't deny players refunds if they immediately think your game is dogshit?

But the game isn't shitty you say? Ok, then imagine how fucking retarded the developer is to think he can't risk launching on steam because it'll do worse than Pantheon.

Like I said, either way MNMs dev is a raging, retarded faggot.

*it's also possible that's why he doesn't visit the forums, because we call him a raging, retarded faggot.

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Steam takes a 30% cut of sales. It would be prudent for them to wait for steam until they stabilize as it cuts all future margin. And I think he reported my post FYI.