Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kirun

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Since there isn't a raid focus in this game what is your plan when you blow through the content at mach 5?
What's the plan when the nostalgia honeymoon ends and it's no longer just a "chill dad game" people log into for vibes?

If the answer to mach 5 is "people will just slow down and socialize," that's fine - but that's not really a content strategy. On release (because they're giving us Early Access to their content) leveling routes are solved. Optimal group comps are known. Dungeons are mapped. The "first corpse run was magical" moment has already happened. What's the retention loop then?

Because without a meaningful raid layer, competitive PvE layer, rotating instanced content, or some structured endgame progression, both the mach 5 crowd and the chill crowd eventually hit the same wall. One just gets there faster. So the real question isn't "what if someone rushes?" It's "what happens when the new car smell wears off?"

If the long-term answer is just "hang out and vibe," that'll work for the 60 year old divorced cat ladies and disability leechers. But that's not a design backbone. That's hoping social glue replaces systemic depth and social glue doesn't have to exist solely in-game anymore like it did in 1999.
 

Burns

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Early WoW was an absolute shit-show with Warriors and Rogues out performing some 'DPS' specs by triple digit percentages. Prot Warriors were the ONLY choice for high end raid tanking. Balance Druids, Enhancement Shamans, Shadow Priests, and if memory serves Survival (??) Hunters were absolute dogshit. Paladins were shit across the board for a good while.

Game did OK.

Fun is paramount.
For vanilla, druids and priests were healers, the other trees didn't matter, and Survival, like Sub rogue, was the pvp meme tree. We don't talk about shaman and pallies... in AQ the a few of the pallies had to sit outside the zone and buff the rest of us.
 

Sythrak

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Yeah I'm not picturing an EQ-like game without a raid scene. If they don't have anything to do at end game it's going to die fast.
 
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Kithani

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What if only 100 people have anything to do at end game because they don’t instance content? Will it somehow not die real fast anyway?
 
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Quaid

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Yeah I'm not picturing an EQ-like game without a raid scene. If they don't have anything to do at end game it's going to die fast.

Agreed.

I don't agree with the notion that PUGs are the primary driver of meaningful social connection in these games, and that that is the best way to foster relationships. Unless you're coming in with a pre-made group, the best way to find people similar to yourself is to sort into a guild that fits your playstyle, and identify folks within that subgroup on the server. Large raid targets facilitate the need for a large raid force, and thus requires a large guild size. A large guild size yields players across time zones and play times. Access to a manageable subgroup of people on a shared /gu and Discord with predictable playtimes leads to repeated play sessions with the same folks. Raid environments help you get acquainted with folks without having to facilitate smaller group play on your own first, which is vastly more difficult than joining a large group with formal leadership directing it.

I dunno, I'm just hoping a decent number of the folks I play with on the regular (Maybe 50-65 people) choose to give MnM a shot. Unfortunately so far it's not looking good. I've been intentionally not really sharing strong opinions about the game because I'm curious to hear uninfluenced opinions, and what I'm seeing so far echoes a lot of what we talk about here.

The guild is about 120 'active' folks plus a bunch of constantly churning newcomers that come and go mostly unnoticed, and the 50-65 people I see regularly are the core raid team. A few weeks ago Nick or someone came around and offered the guild leader beta opt-in at the guild level. He canvassed the guild in discord and started sign-ups. Interest was moderate, about 30 folks, but only 5-7 of the core raiders even bothered to opt-in. The other 25 were super casual types I've barely ever interacted with. Talk among the people who play and raid the most has been quite... uninterested.

I don't think a significant subset of my guild, let alone the group I mostly hang with, is going to be checking it out in any meaningful way. So I'm staring down the barrel of trying to find the folks I want to play with. If there's no focused raid game to speak of, I have no idea how I'm going to identify a significant group of 'my people' to group with regularly. I'm not looking forward to gritting my teeth through dozens of horrible PUGs, hoping I encounter some diamonds in the rough who play at the same times and frequency as I do... and have the social wherewithal to maintain a relationship outside of a guild environment at all.
 

moonarchia

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What if only 100 people have anything to do at end game because they don’t instance content? Will it somehow not die real fast anyway?
There is a very vocal subset of autists that screeches really loudly when people point out that instancing isn't optional if a game wants to succeed in Current_Year. It's not a group large enough to sustain a game, and also not one that sticks around if content isn't coming out hot and fresh on the regular. So yeah, this game is going to die real fast if it ever makes it to release.
 
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Lodi

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There is a very vocal subset of autists that screeches really loudly when people point out that instancing isn't optional if a game wants to succeed in Current_Year. It's not a group large enough to sustain a game, and also not one that sticks around if content isn't coming out hot and fresh on the regular. So yeah, this game is going to die real fast if it ever makes it to release.
Do you mean instancing where everyone can have their own instance or instancing as in sharding, where a zone hits a pop cap and then creates a new zone? Sharding I'm cool with.
 
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Kithani

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Do you mean instancing where everyone can have their own instance or instancing as in sharding where a zone hits a pop cap and then creates a new zone? Sharding I'm cool with.
Everyone should get their own raid* instance, sharding maybe for dungeons.

The reality is that nobody with a job or a real life wants to sit around letting a bunch of nerds monopolize content in 2026, that shit just won’t fly like it did 1999-2002ish
 
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Lodi

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Yeah, fine with it for raids. Dungeons definitely need sharding though or items just aren't worth shit and drops don't feel special at all.
 

mkopec

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Meh in reality EQ was always about group type content. And thats what the masses mostly engaged in. Raid content in EQ was contested and therefore only available to a small minority of players. Maybe a few expansions in some second tier guild would be allowed access to the scraps of last year or whatever. But even then the way the items and clickeys worked in EQ, even the old raid content was still useful to farm for those rare nugs of loot.

Im not saying NOT to have raid shit in the game, but dont sell it as something that the masses participated in. Maybe in WOW and instanced shit they did, but not in EQ.
 
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Quaid

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Meh in reality EQ was always about group type content. And thats what the masses mostly engaged in. Raid content in EQ was contested and therefore only available to a small minority of players. Maybe a few expansions in some second tier guild would be allowed access to the scraps of last year or whatever. But even then the way the items and clickeys worked in EQ, even the old raid content was still useful to farm for those rare nugs of loot.

Im not saying NOT to have raid shit in the game, but dont sell it as something that the masses participated in. Maybe in WOW and instanced shit they did, but not in EQ.

EQ endgame was absolute dogshit and the entire population collapsed by 70% in a 12 month period after a competitor launched that solved the issues with a basic amount of critical thought. Concord level failure. If the same thing happened in 2026 the game would’ve been patched into a gatcha cash shop feeding trough before being put out to pasture a year later.

Almost nothing about EQ’s endgame should be replicated or looked positively on, even by those who loved it at the time.
 

Kirun

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Meh in reality EQ was always about group type content. And thats what the masses mostly engaged in. Raid content in EQ was contested and therefore only available to a small minority of players. Maybe a few expansions in some second tier guild would be allowed access to the scraps of last year or whatever. But even then the way the items and clickeys worked in EQ, even the old raid content was still useful to farm for those rare nugs of loot.

Im not saying NOT to have raid shit in the game, but dont sell it as something that the masses participated in. Maybe in WOW and instanced shit they did, but not in EQ.
You're not wrong that most moment-to-moment play in early EQ was group content. That's historically accurate. But the leap from "most people grouped" to "raids didn't matter to the broader population" is where this gets shaky.

Raid content absolutely shaped the game even for people who never stepped foot in Plane of Fear. It shaped the economy. It shaped guild hierarchies. It shaped server politics. It shaped aspiration. People inspected Epics in EC tunnel like they were Ferraris. The fact that only a minority participated directly doesn't mean it wasn't central to the ecosystem.

But let's be honest about why raid participation was limited in 1999. It wasn't some elegant philosophical design choice about "purity" of group gameplay. It was because of technical limitations, instancing not being standard (this is the biggest one - most servers had 2+ "raid" guilds capable of killing most/all content but instead had to fight over it and the lesser guilds were left with scraps or nothing at all, which flat locked players out of the raiding system through no fault of their own), server capacity realities and the genre being brand new.

Most players didn't interact heavily with raids because the genre itself was novel. Just existing in a persistent 3D world with other humans was revolutionary. People weren't min-maxing content cadence or calculating retention loops. They were just blown away that Upper Guk existed. That novelty carried a lot of weight that design didn't have to.

Fast forward to now and that novelty is gone. The audience understands progression systems. They've seen instancing, lockouts, scalable raids, cross-server tech, expectations are different, attention spans are different and competition for players' time is brutal.

So when people say "don't oversell raids," sure - that's fair. EQ wasn't WoW with 40-man instanced content on farm. But pretending raids were some irrelevant side activity that didn't influence the broader experience isn't accurate either. Even if 80% of players never killed Nagafen, they sure as fuck knew who did. They saw the loot. They saw the drama. They saw the forum posts and the forums that spawned from it. That aspirational layer mattered.

If you remove meaningful raid infrastructure in a modern MMO and rely almost entirely on small-group loops, you'd better have a long-term progression plan that doesn't hinge on 1999's novelty factor. Because back then, just logging in was the content. Now? Logging in is step one.
 
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moonarchia

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Do you mean instancing where everyone can have their own instance or instancing as in sharding, where a zone hits a pop cap and then creates a new zone? Sharding I'm cool with.
Whatever it takes for people not to have to fight each other over camps or whatever 'rare' shit is important in the game. It's a failure MnM and Pantheon share currently, and one that will sink both of them if they don't figure out a way to avoid it.