They literally cannot create the content people are asking for with the team size they have. The only positive from their size and structure is that they need fewer paying people to be a success.
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Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
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Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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That's where I worry about this being a subscription based game. I think they need another model or make the sub fairly inexpensive to were people don't care to keep it active. Given their small team and how people consume MMO's one of two things must happen. One, people have to understand and be willing to accept what the game is and choose to support the game if they think this game is needed in the MMO space. Or two, they take the sub off so people can play at the pace they want and bring friends as the itch comes and goes with an alternative pay model. I honestly believe EQ2 did a fairly good job with their shop. It never really impacted the game but it furthered the opportunity to bring some uniqueness to your character, houses, etc. and I think people will do that especially given their character models and such.
Valheim showed us the pace small teams work. Now, its not a MMO so they can get away with it some but its still a very frustrating pace for those who really enjoy the game. Nevertheless, the reality is they can only work so fast. I'm not saying it isn't possible but I do believe its not sustainable.
Maybe they'll surprise me but I really wish the best for them. I enjoy the game but right now I'm pretty well just going through this loop of leveling players through the first few levels and zones.
EQ had what... two raid dragons and a Plane (PoF)... maybe PoH was open at the beginning, I don't remember so I do think quantity isn't completely necessary but if they can create some meaningful, enjoyable experiences, it won't be too bad but when Kunark came out, we had quite a bit more to consume. Epic Quests were actually a lot of fun for me. I enjoyed Seb, Karnors, and the BP's and leggings that were exclusive to those raid encounters to complete your set. You also had quite a bit with Velious with the faction armor and ToV and ST encounters. I felt EQ drifted too far away from the world they created and could have put some of their expansions into their old worlds to give those places additional value instead of turning into ghost zones but I say all of that to say, their approach is going to need to be very intentional and well-planned to keep people interested... its possible... but considering their bandwidth and infrastructure in terms of a team, it could be challenging.
Valheim showed us the pace small teams work. Now, its not a MMO so they can get away with it some but its still a very frustrating pace for those who really enjoy the game. Nevertheless, the reality is they can only work so fast. I'm not saying it isn't possible but I do believe its not sustainable.
Maybe they'll surprise me but I really wish the best for them. I enjoy the game but right now I'm pretty well just going through this loop of leveling players through the first few levels and zones.
EQ had what... two raid dragons and a Plane (PoF)... maybe PoH was open at the beginning, I don't remember so I do think quantity isn't completely necessary but if they can create some meaningful, enjoyable experiences, it won't be too bad but when Kunark came out, we had quite a bit more to consume. Epic Quests were actually a lot of fun for me. I enjoyed Seb, Karnors, and the BP's and leggings that were exclusive to those raid encounters to complete your set. You also had quite a bit with Velious with the faction armor and ToV and ST encounters. I felt EQ drifted too far away from the world they created and could have put some of their expansions into their old worlds to give those places additional value instead of turning into ghost zones but I say all of that to say, their approach is going to need to be very intentional and well-planned to keep people interested... its possible... but considering their bandwidth and infrastructure in terms of a team, it could be challenging.
Instances speed up content consumption multiplicatively. Look at prog servers with instances, expansions are completed within a few days. WoW has to timegate content. Without instancing people are bottlenecked by camps and competition. You either lose players once everyone gets to end game or by turning people off at the start. It’s complicated
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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You don't need 10 years of content ready to go day one to play an MMO for 10 years. But what you DO need is a strong foundational design that will allow people to see that they will be able to enjoy that content when it arrives. And not cockblocked out of things because 100 assholes decided to camp every interesting mob in a zone.
And it doesn't matter how small your dev team is, a couple hundred people isn't enough to keep the lights on in an MMO.
Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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They only speed up content by allowing all players to actually play the game.
What you're arguing for is essentially restricting access to content for 90% of your players for "longevity."
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I’m saying that’s how eq worked and sort of what this game has to do, like it or not.
Examples of successes. You said they need a strong foundational design and not a lot of content out of the gate. I’m curious what you consider an example of a game doing that.
Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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And like has been pointed out over and over, that only works when you're the only game in town and it's 1999.
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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World of Warcraft launched without a single raid encounter. How much more of a success do you need?
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All im saying is if they are making an EQ spiritual successor, yeah raids were not a thing for most people playing EQ. If they do add raids they better instance them, same for the dungeons (shards) or else people are gonna be pissed. Who wants a game that is 100% accessible only for those that no life the shit out of it, or be put on "lists" for accessing dungeons which is the prime content in the game and waiting for your turn?
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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I think that's an easy fix but I also think you can have a little of both. Again, I believe it comes down to what they want to be as a game and if people are going play, there are some things people just have to accept. You can have world bosses, open world spawns, etc but also have instanced experiences that are completely unique experiences to the other. If you give them their respective value, I think people will appreciate each experience.
For better or for worse, over instancing and creating systems that cause you to completely avoid social interactions has cause the decay of the MMO experience. Everyone is correct however... that's the expectation. I log in, queue up, and me and my friends (or random match making people) get to do whatever I want in that very moment. However, I don't think that's the game they want to make and I don't want them to make it. I believe I'm certainly the minority when you take the global expectations of MMOs so it again comes back to what game do they want to make and are the people willing to play it. If not, they then have to decide how far do they bend and drift away from the original intent of the game. It's a vicious cycle... can a game like that ever make it? Depends on what they consider worth their time... their definition of success. 15-20 million subs is simply not going to happen but is that their goal? I don't think so... its probably a little snide but people are going to have to be honest with themselves and expectations by trying to not make the game what its not. If it fails, then it fails but I certainly hope not. I hope they can implement enough QoL to make it something people will tolerate but doesn't drift too far away from the game they hope to make.
For better or for worse, over instancing and creating systems that cause you to completely avoid social interactions has cause the decay of the MMO experience. Everyone is correct however... that's the expectation. I log in, queue up, and me and my friends (or random match making people) get to do whatever I want in that very moment. However, I don't think that's the game they want to make and I don't want them to make it. I believe I'm certainly the minority when you take the global expectations of MMOs so it again comes back to what game do they want to make and are the people willing to play it. If not, they then have to decide how far do they bend and drift away from the original intent of the game. It's a vicious cycle... can a game like that ever make it? Depends on what they consider worth their time... their definition of success. 15-20 million subs is simply not going to happen but is that their goal? I don't think so... its probably a little snide but people are going to have to be honest with themselves and expectations by trying to not make the game what its not. If it fails, then it fails but I certainly hope not. I hope they can implement enough QoL to make it something people will tolerate but doesn't drift too far away from the game they hope to make.
Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I can't remember who's been posting it, but I think this is the misconception. You blame instancing for deteriorating the social interactions we remember from EQ, but I think the reality is the world changed. EQ was basically a glorified chatroom for a relatively new internet.
But a quarter century later that's not a thing anymore. The reason MMO's don't successfully integrate the social aspect well isn't because of instancing, it's because it's just not a thing MMO's can do when there are infinite other platforms that do it better; essentially all social media. Developers are chasing a memory of something that can't be recreated, because the method has evolved.
It'd be like trying to recreate the telegraph when phones were 20 years old. At best you're going to get people who do it as a hobby, but as a means of communication it's not only completely unnecessary, it's significantly more difficult to use. So why would you? And they're developing an entire game around this friction to try to recreate it, which makes it even more retarded.
I think you lost the plot here if you think WoW didn’t have a lot of content out of the gate. Do I need to remind you the budget and number of employees at blizzard? What are you saying?
people need to think of this mmorpg as a Eq emu server mod and not as a full fledged mmorpg. The expectations are insane here. It’s not redefining anything and it’s not going to be a game you play for a decade. It cannot be that. It’s a highly customized eq emu server that you need to pay a subscription for. To some that sub will be worth it since the small dev team has more control over things than a normal eq emu server and it can add features beyond the eq system/engine constraints.
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moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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A small vocal group of autists. That's who. They are the driving force for the graveyard of failed MMOs.
A game doesn't have to be massive to succeed. It just needs to be complete, relatively balanced, and accessible to everyone. That means instancing, for better or worse. You can put them on timers to reduce loot introduction, but at the end of the day the vast majority of people aren't going to pay to compete over spawns. Everyone wants to be the hero. No one wants to be the zero.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Instancing on Quarm is fucking awesome. We raided every major Velious target (Vulak, Avatar of War, Dain, Sleeper's, Tunare) weekly for 7 months and could've done more. The content wasn't 'consumed' just because we had seen it. Almost nobody got full best-in-slot, and most folks levelled and geared two level 60s during that content cycle. Now that Luclin is out we're STILL hitting old Velious content for alts and new players. We still clear Nagafen, Vox, and Trakanon weekly in smaller and smaller groups. You'd have to ask the server admins, but my guess is there's like 800-1200 players engaging in the exact same behaviour every single week.
The notion that instancing in and of itself reduces the longevity of raid content is nonsense.
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moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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It's always been about gearing time, rather than 'content consumption'.
WoW did this shit really really badly early on and got stuck with it. Everything in BWL was an upgrade over everything in Molten Core, and I think I got 3 pieces of Tier 2 in a single BWL clear one time. Set bonuses made previous tier gear obsolescence even worse. Shit was absurd.