Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kirun

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A lot of players who push for open-world PvP in MMORPGs (outside of structured systems like battlegrounds, realm vs. realm, or other organized formats) aren't really looking for balanced competition. They're looking for situations where they can create an advantage and power imbalance - catching someone off guard, out-gearing them, outnumbering, better/more "meta" class choice, or otherwise unable to respond on equal footing. It's not about the "thrill" of meaningful PvP and more about control, dominance, or outright griefing.

If the goal were truly fair, skill-based fights, those players would gravitate toward games designed around equalized conditions, such as FPS titles, MOBAs, or even structured PvP modes within MMOs themselves - where everyone has access to the same tools and the outcome is more directly tied to player skill. Those environments remove most of the external variables like gear disparity, surprise attacks, or uneven numbers, which are often what open-world PvP relies on.

In PvE-centric MMOs especially, open PvP systems tend to clash with the core design. The majority of players are there to progress, explore, or cooperate, not to be interrupted by unpredictable encounters they didn't opt into. It creates a dynamic where PvP doesn't enhance the experience, it just disrupts it and creates unneeded friction that causes many players to quit the game.

In nearly 30 years of playing MMOs, I can literally count on one hand the number of open-world PvP encounters that actually felt like a close, skillful, back-and-forth fight (and that's why I can count them, because they were so rare they ended up being that memorable/outside the "norm"). The vast majority weren't competitive. They were one-sided, opportunistic, and over quickly. That pattern says a lot about what these systems actually produce in practice versus what people claim they want from them.
 
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Siliconemelons

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Every PVP Victory induces...

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vegetoeeVegetoee

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A lot of players who push for open-world PvP in MMORPGs (outside of structured systems like battlegrounds, realm vs. realm, or other organized formats) aren't really looking for balanced competition. They're looking for situations where they can create an advantage and power imbalance - catching someone off guard, out-gearing them, outnumbering, better/more "meta" class choice, or otherwise unable to respond on equal footing. It's not about the "thrill" of meaningful PvP and more about control, dominance, or outright griefing.

If the goal were truly fair, skill-based fights, those players would gravitate toward games designed around equalized conditions, such as FPS titles, MOBAs, or even structured PvP modes within MMOs themselves - where everyone has access to the same tools and the outcome is more directly tied to player skill. Those environments remove most of the external variables like gear disparity, surprise attacks, or uneven numbers, which are often what open-world PvP relies on.

In PvE-centric MMOs especially, open PvP systems tend to clash with the core design. The majority of players are there to progress, explore, or cooperate, not to be interrupted by unpredictable encounters they didn't opt into. It creates a dynamic where PvP doesn't enhance the experience, it just disrupts it and creates unneeded friction that causes many players to quit the game.

In nearly 30 years of playing MMOs, I can literally count on one hand the number of open-world PvP encounters that actually felt like a close, skillful, back-and-forth fight (and that's why I can count them, because they were so rare they ended up being that memorable/outside the "norm"). The vast majority weren't competitive. They were one-sided, opportunistic, and over quickly. That pattern says a lot about what these systems actually produce in practice versus what people claim they want from them.
In my 30 years I can only count a handful of times where I was ganked or griefed. No clue what you are on about. We play PVP because of the added thrill and ability to take matters into your own hands. PVE servers are arguably worse because people abuse systems in ways that break gameplay, then they go whine to GM's who love to cave and suspend/ban others that were not at fault. I've seen that shit happen at least 100x over my 30 years. On PVP servers, I have never seen it happen.
 
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Kirun

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In my 30 years I can only count a handful of times where I was ganked or griefed. No clue what you are on about. We play PVP because of the added thrill and ability to take matters into your own hands. PVE servers are arguably worse because people abuse systems in ways that break gameplay, then they go whine to GM's who love to cave and suspend/ban others that were not at fault. I've seen that shit happen at least 100x over my 30 years. On PVP servers, I have never seen it happen.
1775677270630.png
 
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Mrniceguy

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A lot of players who push for open-world PvP in MMORPGs (outside of structured systems like battlegrounds, realm vs. realm, or other organized formats) aren't really looking for balanced competition. They're looking for situations where they can create an advantage and power imbalance - catching someone off guard, out-gearing them, outnumbering, better/more "meta" class choice, or otherwise unable to respond on equal footing. It's not about the "thrill" of meaningful PvP and more about control, dominance, or outright griefing.

If the goal were truly fair, skill-based fights, those players would gravitate toward games designed around equalized conditions, such as FPS titles, MOBAs, or even structured PvP modes within MMOs themselves - where everyone has access to the same tools and the outcome is more directly tied to player skill. Those environments remove most of the external variables like gear disparity, surprise attacks, or uneven numbers, which are often what open-world PvP relies on.

In PvE-centric MMOs especially, open PvP systems tend to clash with the core design. The majority of players are there to progress, explore, or cooperate, not to be interrupted by unpredictable encounters they didn't opt into. It creates a dynamic where PvP doesn't enhance the experience, it just disrupts it and creates unneeded friction that causes many players to quit the game

I won't be playing PVP in this game, the combat just isn't fluid enough for me to see it being fun. I've never really understood in MMOs why PVE players that play on PVE servers cry about things they're not even participating in.

"Balanced PVP" sucks it's boring every fight feels the same, forces you to play meta class/comp, skill based MMR systems punish you for getting good at the game. ect.

The absolute peak of open PVP is when you're slightly disadvantaged and still pull out the W anyways.

In nearly 30 years of playing MMOs, I can literally count on one hand the number of open-world PvP encounters that actually felt like a close, skillful, back-and-forth fight (and that's why I can count them, because they were so rare they ended up being that memorable/outside the "norm"). The vast majority weren't competitive. They were one-sided, opportunistic, and over quickly. That pattern says a lot about what these systems actually produce in practice versus what people claim they want from them.

Sounds like you died in Redridge Mountains a couple time and rage quit. Sure getting ganked happens and it sucks, but if you spend most of you time at max level and STILL have mostly onesided fights that's just a skill issue on your part.
 
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Burns

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I've never really understood in MMOs why PVE players that play on PVE servers cry about things they're not even participating in.
Mainly due to the fact that some changes made for PvP reasons negatively affect the PvE game.

For example, why did MnM just make players that were invisible still almost translucent when See Invis is up. It looks like a change for PvP so rogues and invis classes don't just have a worthless spell in a PvP environment. It activly makes the PvE game worse when you have a difficult time seeing the "invis" party members in front you.
 

GuardianX

Perpetually Pessimistic
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The main two things I saw in AoA that were a nice upgrade from anything I'd seen in any MMO to date were in regards to chat.


1. The Chat box setup having all the options in one window pane rather than various sub menus was so nice, especially the all off/on options and the checkmark boxes to choose what you wanted in a window.

View attachment 623841



2. How the floating text chat worked when around other players. They did a really good job having a popup window show up when talking without it being intrusive. At first I didn't' even notice it but once I got a feel for the game it was quite well thought out and helpful in combat situations. I didn't have to look at my chat boxes and could follow what was going on in the group chat while maintaining concentration on the fight.

As you can see below where the player said "Enjoy".

View attachment 623842




There's likely more but those were the 2 biggest two things that I thought were a nice QoL change that didn't take much effort.

the unsung hero was the "..." chat bubbles when you were in proxy of people. I was laughign when I could see a dude in our party trolling /global over his head with 0 context of the global convo.

"Thats why you are autistic" in green text or something, was funny.
 
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Kirun

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Sounds like you died in Redridge Mountains a couple time and rage quit. Sure getting ganked happens and it sucks, but if you spend most of you time at max level and STILL have mostly onesided fights that's just a skill issue on your part.
Or...

I've been doing this for a long time. I ran with PRX on Andred and Merlin back in DAoC, played Shadowbane with Ebonlore, and spent years in PvP-heavy games. I know exactly how this plays out, and the whole "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" narrative is mostly fantasy.

The people who say that and actually believe it either haven't PvPed long enough to see what actually happens once a server matures, or they conveniently leave out the part where they're almost always fighting with an advantage. Give it time and one of two things happens: either the population drops off because people get tired of being farmed, or the gap closes and suddenly those "epic comeback fights" stop happening because they're no longer massively ahead in gear, levels, or time investment.

Let's be honest, most of these players aren't looking for "fair fights". They're looking for controlled outcomes. They run in groups, stack advantages, and pick their engagements carefully. Then they turn around and roleplay it as some kind of gritty, high-skill, underdog PvP experience. In reality, it's usually better gear, higher levels, and a numbers advantage doing the heavy lifting. Players who stick to actual PvP servers? Fine. At least there's some level of buy-in and expectation there. But the crowd constantly pushing to inject PvP into PvE-focused games or "PvE" servers are almost always the same type of player - they don't want competition, they just want targets.
 
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Mrniceguy

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and the whole "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" narrative is mostly fantasy
In reality, it's usually better gear, higher levels, and a numbers advantage doing the heavy lifting.

Yeah 100% confirming skill issue with these statements. You don't get to feeling the winning from behind very much if you're the worse player. So naturally you think it's all about gear, because that's when you win, when you got such a gear advantage that it just doesn't matter.

Players who stick to actual PvP servers? Fine. At least there's some level of buy-in and expectation there. But the crowd constantly pushing to inject PvP into PvE-focused games or "PvE" servers

Is anyone here doing that? Has this even happened in any MMO ever honestly? Like 100% experience the inverse a ton, especially in EQ TLP community.
 

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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You don't need to be a retard to understand the ideal time to PVP someone is right after he engaged 3 mobs or is just questing. Even in OG WOW this was a huge complaint as the rogue class is of course perfectly suited to prey upon that situation. In EQ you just wait until they're alone, half health, and medding then strike.
 

Siliconemelons

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You don't need to be a retard to understand the ideal time to PVP someone is right after he engaged 3 mobs or is just questing. Even in OG WOW this was a huge complaint as the rogue class is of course perfectly suited to prey upon that situation. In EQ you just wait until they're alone, half health, and medding then strike.

And that is how you solve the problem of a random guy just out in the middle of nowhere farming light blues while rocking his baby irl while getting some chill exp and chatting.

See, pvp for everything solves it, there has never been any PVP server drama, never has an entire server been light switch flipped off because of PvP beef or anything, not in the last 30 years of MMO history!
 

uniqueuser

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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A lot of players who push for open-world PvP in MMORPGs (outside of structured systems like battlegrounds, realm vs. realm, or other organized formats) aren't really looking for balanced competition. They're looking for situations where they can create an advantage and power imbalance - catching someone off guard, out-gearing them, outnumbering, better/more "meta" class choice, or otherwise unable to respond on equal footing. It's not about the "thrill" of meaningful PvP and more about control, dominance, or outright griefing.

If the goal were truly fair, skill-based fights, those players would gravitate toward games designed around equalized conditions, such as FPS titles, MOBAs, or even structured PvP modes within MMOs themselves - where everyone has access to the same tools and the outcome is more directly tied to player skill. Those environments remove most of the external variables like gear disparity, surprise attacks, or uneven numbers, which are often what open-world PvP relies on.

In PvE-centric MMOs especially, open PvP systems tend to clash with the core design. The majority of players are there to progress, explore, or cooperate, not to be interrupted by unpredictable encounters they didn't opt into. It creates a dynamic where PvP doesn't enhance the experience, it just disrupts it and creates unneeded friction that causes many players to quit the game.

In nearly 30 years of playing MMOs, I can literally count on one hand the number of open-world PvP encounters that actually felt like a close, skillful, back-and-forth fight (and that's why I can count them, because they were so rare they ended up being that memorable/outside the "norm"). The vast majority weren't competitive. They were one-sided, opportunistic, and over quickly. That pattern says a lot about what these systems actually produce in practice versus what people claim they want from them.
I don’t need a Lithose-length chatgpt summary to state that “unstructured” PvP simply adds flavor to the otherwise bland dish the typical MMO is. It’s the fruit-on-the-bottom version of vanilla yogurt, as opposed to the boring homogeneity of plain or blended.

It doesn’t even need to satisfy any of your requirements to be meaningful, in fact it tends to become less meaningful the more the game tries to meet them. Nearly every minute I’ve wasted in a WoW battleground escapes my memory, yet I can still recall fights in UO or EQ that happened 25 years ago despite PvP being a total afterthought of their development.

It’d be nice to see better future attempts at open, persistent game worlds without resorting to segregating their populations between hardcoded rulesets. But that won’t be happening anytime soon, since this thread shows that retarded takes on what’s now a decades old topic still dominate the discourse.
 
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Flobee

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I don’t need a Lithose-length chatgpt summary to state that “unstructured” PvP simply adds flavor to the otherwise bland dish the typical MMO is. It’s the fruit-on-the-bottom version of vanilla yogurt, as opposed to the boring homogeneity of plain or blended.

It doesn’t even need to satisfy any of your requirements to be meaningful, in fact it tends to become less meaningful the more the game tries to meet them. Nearly every minute I’ve wasted in a WoW battleground escapes my memory, yet I can still recall fights in UO or EQ that happened 25 years ago despite PvP being a total afterthought of their development.

It’d be nice to see better future attempts at open, persistent game worlds without resorting to segregating their populations between hardcoded rulesets. But that won’t be happening anytime soon, since this thread shows that retarded takes on what’s now a decades old topic still dominate the discourse.
I've said it before, but I don't think you solve the pvp problem in MMOs without finding some way to replace the "anti-pk" role that was fairly prominent in these games early on.

A healthy server by my reckoning has three groups which I like to categorize as sheep, wolves, and sheep-dogs. No modern games have sheep-dogs so you just have the wolves run all the sheep off and kill the server. Originally this role was self selected largely for Roleplaying purposes. Well RP outside of creeps is pretty much dead so the genre needs a new way to do it. I dunno how to fix it, but I'm pretty confident that's the main problem. Gotta protect the sheep, and I think it needs to be solved at the social layer mostly. Can probably design systems to incentivise the behavior, but not sure that will work.

On MMO pvp more generally, at its best it's about resource competition and domination. It's really only fun if losing just means you have to go to the second best spot, not losing means you can't play. I personally enjoy MMO pvp because I like to need to stay on my toes when playing, it helps to keep the game fresh. Things that are irrelevant in PVE can be incredibly important in PVP. You end up with a completely different set of priorities.
 

Mrniceguy

Blackwing Lair Raider
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546
There is nothing too fix with MMO PVP you just don't like it. That's okay. The only thing MMO PvP servers need is PVP gameplay that feels good. I don't think this game will have that.

When MMOs peaked WOW had more PVP servers than PVE servers. Literally as soon as they stopped catering to PvP is when the numbers tanked and MMOs have never really fully gotten back since.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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7,140
Imagine ganking someone in the wild and then having a squad of your boys back in town camping the bank so they can’t get their backup spellbook?

Fucking peak gaming.
 
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Drapdis

Peasant
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Imagine ganking someone in the wild and then having a squad of your boys back in town camping the bank so they can’t get their backup spellbook?

Fucking peak gaming.
Everyone knows you memorize your spells from the bank itself and keep the item there. No backup needed. You still have to get to the bank though.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,546
7,140
Everyone knows you memorize your spells from the bank itself and keep the item there. No backup needed. You still have to get to the bank though.

No. Not everyone goes back to the bank every time they want to change their spell loadout situationally. Only shitters do that.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
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18,708
I don’t need a Lithose-length chatgpt summary to state that “unstructured” PvP simply adds flavor to the otherwise bland dish the typical MMO is. It’s the fruit-on-the-bottom version of vanilla yogurt, as opposed to the boring homogeneity of plain or blended.

It doesn’t even need to satisfy any of your requirements to be meaningful, in fact it tends to become less meaningful the more the game tries to meet them. Nearly every minute I’ve wasted in a WoW battleground escapes my memory, yet I can still recall fights in UO or EQ that happened 25 years ago despite PvP being a total afterthought of their development.

It’d be nice to see better future attempts at open, persistent game worlds without resorting to segregating their populations between hardcoded rulesets. But that won’t be happening anytime soon, since this thread shows that retarded takes on what’s now a decades old topic still dominate the discourse.
What you're calling "flavor" is usually just unstructured chaos that disproportionately benefits whoever already has the advantage. And your nostalgia is doing all of the heavy lifting here. Of course you remember a handful of fights from UO or EQ. Those games were new, the genre was new, and everything felt more impactful because of it. But you're conveniently ignoring the hundreds (if not thousands) of forgettable or outright lopsided encounters that came with those systems. Cherry-picking a few standout memories from 25 years ago doesn't suddenly make the underlying design good.

The reason structured PvP fades from memory isn't because it's inherently worse, it's because it removes the artificial highs that come from stomping or getting stomped. When you strip away gear gaps, numbers advantages, and surprise factor, what's left is actual competition. And for a lot of people, that's less "memorable" because it's not propped up by uneven conditions. And let's not pretend that "unstructured PvP doesn't need to meet any requirements" is some kind of strength. You're basically admitting it doesn't need to be balanced, fair, or even well-designed to be enjoyable. Of course it doesn't... for a certain type of player. And yeah, that type of player tends to enjoy it because it consistently puts them on the winning side of uneven encounters.

"Unified worlds without rule segregation" always lead to the exact same outcome they always have - one group treating the game as a shared world, and another treating it as a hunting ground. The industry already learned this lesson years ago, which is why those "hardcoded rulesets" exist in the first place. How many of these games need to be tried before the realization sets in that outside of that aforementioned player, nobody actually enjoys those rulesets.