Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
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Siliconemelons
Ssraeszha Raider
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Good - but much sounds like it should be a spellblade, or inq at least in the world of MnM…
Sorry not sorry- “pure casters” should never be a tank or melee dps… like the dupe hit thing, it should be some magic shade/clone doing it bound to 1-3 melee etc as u level…not the enchanter doing it… but a spellblade, or inq whatever yes that tracks.
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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I don't think it's not that they're not OP... Just they aren't good.
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Goonsquad Officer
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Break
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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They tuned charm so the DPS of the charmed mob is sharply lower.
They also turned charm so it's extremely unreliable, and when it drops the aggro the mob had is gone. GONE.
I could see one or the other being a good balance choice, but doing both I'm fairly certain is retarded. No enchanter I'm grouping with charms anymore, it's a sharp difference from beta. Enchanters tell me too they can't solo for shit anymore, charm breaks, the aggro completely drops, root breaks too it's wildly unreliable, their mana drops to zero just having 2 low green con mobs kill one another. Meanwhile an Ele, Necro or Wizard mop the floor with a whole camp of mobs.
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GuardianX
Perpetually Pessimistic
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On Kriddle 100%...
Bards vs monk isn't even a fight though but in terms of being able to pull both can pull but Monks are broken. Legit broken as in can 100% with very little in the way of failure, pull a mob, even a named mob.
For enchanters, No one can handle charm these days, I don't know why they are trying. Pivot the class to something else and move away from charm to something else spending months / years of time trying to balance a thing that can't be balanced is wild.
gauze
Molten Core Raider
- 1,266
- 492
I more or less kinda wish they'd just let enc kinda stat themselves into a specific direction. If they want to be a charm enc, stack cha and benefit.. if they want to be a caster, stack int and nuke.. or while not really thought out but mostly because of when we had enchant ally; stack sta, have better mes/buffs and become a puller.. atleast for me, my spellbar always feel full, and i'm constantly rotating spells in and out while also not even using half the provided kit but idk; prob doesn't really work for this game.. but hey i got ashira illus at lv20.
Getting more cha just doesn't feel that great atm, but maybe i'm blind.. listening to my friend get more wis on his shaman seems pretty night/day in excitement. I also don't mind being delegated to pulling as an enc, esp since I don't even bother with charm anymore. Feels like ffxi bard
Getting more cha just doesn't feel that great atm, but maybe i'm blind.. listening to my friend get more wis on his shaman seems pretty night/day in excitement. I also don't mind being delegated to pulling as an enc, esp since I don't even bother with charm anymore. Feels like ffxi bard
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Kithani
Vyemm Raider
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- 3,980
If the premier CC & Buff class isn’t good then that’s a game/dungeon design issue IMO not a class design issue.
Now IF you say there’s an issue where Enchanter was not the premier CC/Buff class then I’d give you that’s a class design issue.
Personally I think it’s obvious enchant ally needs to come back and get fleshed out at some point but they ran out of time to do anything cool with it
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Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Keep in mind I solo 100% now so my view is skewed, but I guess it depends if enc brings anything more valuable that just another dps might bring.
I think there's enough CC among other classes that you could just have a necro pull and CC the odd adds just fine. A bard could probably completely replace them. Throw in an INQ and enc is useless. Do their buffs outweigh that?
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Kithani
Vyemm Raider
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What is wrong with a bard being able to replace an Enchanter?
To me that’s like saying “man having a cleric in group you wouldn’t need to bring along a druid!”
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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I think my point is bard is just better And more beneficial but I am mostly talking out of my fart box
GuardianX
Perpetually Pessimistic
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The wild part to me is that CHA isn't the dump stat for them that gives enoguh return to justify investment. Plus there isn't enough CHA gear out there to really just deep dive it in a reasonable sense, not in the same way int impacts them.
MNM stat scaling is a mess and people are 100% going to quit if they fuck with the weights, that said they need to fuck with weights.
Said this all before release, in beta / alpha messing with stats doesn't matter because their is a understanding of temporary nature in the effort they put into things; now in release there is an expectation of permanence. If i farm a named mob for 100 hours, I expect that 100 hours to maintain it's value in a relative sense. If they disrupt that balance / expectation in a major way, you can expect that many people will quit in a permanent sense.
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Premier? I wouldnt say that - its more of the blunt instrument when a more refined/skillful approach could get the same outcome. Throw a dagger, pull the whole group, mez them all with fascinate, then recap that mez with single target mez, and whiddle them all down while the enchanter dances around timers. OR - you can use a multitude of different ways, like Feign Death, and only pull a couple and approach the camp that way. After the camps broken, then what? ... Buffs? What exactly is the enchanter bringing that cant be shored up by other classes? Multiple sources of mana regen in the game now. Multiple sources of Slow. Multiple sources of Haste. .. Not sure what their* unique flavor is here thats supposed to outweigh what those classes bring to the table. Is that small percentage difference really making up the loss of a class like a Shaman? or a Bard? Or even a Magician? (Depending on whatever flavor your group is missing, obviously.)
But, as
GuardianX
just pointed out, yes - there is a stat weight issue. Or as you said, game/dungeon design issue. Which is multiple, but just pointing out what Guardian said - I can go camp the haste belt, one of the best haste items in the game, by myself. OR, I can go camp some +3 Int gloves in the same level range at the bottom of a dungeon. Where shit respawns so fast, that even with the highest DPS classes in your group - you're still moving and killing like its a fucking gauntlet. Only to be greeted by mobs in that group that have almost instant cast AOE stuns, which can cascade into a mezzed healer thats already used his racial, and .... now you're doing a CR at the bottom of a dungeon which takes hours to get your shit back out of. Not only are the items that drop in these dungeons completely fucking bizarre with their stat allocation - but the mob placement with abilities seem to be thrown in "haphazardly" in a way that ... prevents the very idea of "sandwich combat" altogether. Dont get me wrong - I absolutely LOVE dungeon diving in this game. Just that feeling of getting somewhere where most people dont go because "its too dangerous" is a thrill in itself. But its not something I routinely want to do until Im 60 and I can afford to, at worst case, drop that 10 fucking gold on a coffer if I need to. Never mind the fact that you arent replacing anyone in a dungeon group - and you're fighting all the way back down to camp again. Clerics and Paladins with the only rez, so if your puller dies and you dont have either of those in your group - now you have a possible LITTANY of fucking issues.
..
Look, I like the game. Ive came back to it multiple times since early alpha. This is the furthest Ive been in it without playing someone elses characters. The flaws in it only become evident, or "truly" evident when you start to get into your low 40's and only get more visible to you as you go past that. I think.. with this conversation Im going to take a break from the game. Ill come back in a module or two. But as Noodle pointed out - in WoW, you could make a different class and get it back up to speed in a couple days or there about. In this, the thought of making an alt and spending .. even using my characters to power level .. the thought of that makes me fucking gag. The idea that they'll "fix" or "buff" the Enchanter, or the Inquisitor for that matter - in any reasonable amount of time is unrealistic. Look how long it took for Blizzard to swing back around to class balance, one, two, sometimes three major patches before they would address some glaring issues. How long before they do either of those classes when half the fucking audience thinks they are "ok"?
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Judge_Mental
Trakanon Raider
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A lot of classes don't really have an identity outside of the boilerplate Everquest deep dives. there still is so much left to accomplish with classes (not even balance yet just skills and systems) that I would guess most people will just get bored with a hollow kit. There are a lot of good players on this board and on Trem that could help with build designs. I would help with the bard design space anytime.
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Hekotat
FoH nuclear response team
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Bard charm and mez break more frequently than ench variants. Bard charm almost never casts for some reason. Something is broken with charm on Bard and I shelved the class because of it.
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Pasteton
Vyemm Raider
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Kind of want to echo what daifroco said. I have played multiple classes to 60 since alpha and obviously I enjoy the game but mostly because I can do a lot of it while innattentive. The game really changed in the late 40s and esp the 50s in not only scale of difficulty /punishment but also tediousness and wild imbalance, both in terms of class power but also in enemy power and itemization.
Unfortunately, with these guys, I don’t think you can give them the benefit of the doubt it ‘it’s EA’ because over the past year + I have seen little improvement in these issues - if anything the deep made it even worse with how OP gear is from caves and caverns. It feels like there’s zero crosstalk between designers (some of whom are really quite skilled at their craft ) and this leads to bewildering balance issues and it stems from there being essentially no project manager on this team - Shawn basically expects everyone to do their job and we kinda saw how that worked out with Nick lol.
I love the game and I think it’s a labor of love but if you think the above issues are going to get taken care of in any timely fashion prepare to be disappointed. This is why I expect mostly to get 6-12 months of fun out of this game at most, unless they really surprise me
Unfortunately, with these guys, I don’t think you can give them the benefit of the doubt it ‘it’s EA’ because over the past year + I have seen little improvement in these issues - if anything the deep made it even worse with how OP gear is from caves and caverns. It feels like there’s zero crosstalk between designers (some of whom are really quite skilled at their craft ) and this leads to bewildering balance issues and it stems from there being essentially no project manager on this team - Shawn basically expects everyone to do their job and we kinda saw how that worked out with Nick lol.
I love the game and I think it’s a labor of love but if you think the above issues are going to get taken care of in any timely fashion prepare to be disappointed. This is why I expect mostly to get 6-12 months of fun out of this game at most, unless they really surprise me