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Morrow

Morrow

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In the glory days of Urza's, every color was winning tournaments and Counterspell was all over the format (not to mention several other counters that are now considered broken). I had two-three different green decks that I loved and won with (Rofellos elvish ramp, Exploration/Argothian Enchantress and also jaguar/rancor rush) and a red land destruction deck that I loved and won with. I remember one week black would win a tournament of 40+ (with PTQ players playing at my local store, we even had a world champion), the next week blue would win, the next red, the next green. Even white Angels won once in a while. Counterspell was everywhere and yet somehow, there were 5 different colors and more than 5 decks winning tournaments. Those days were glorious.
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Morrow_sl said:
In the glory days of Urza's, every color was winning tournaments and Counterspell was all over the format (not to mention several other counters that are now considered broken). I had two-three different green decks that I loved and won with (Rofellos elvish ramp, Exploration/Argothian Enchantress and also jaguar/rancor rush) and a red land destruction deck that I loved and won with. I remember one week black would win a tournament of 40+ (with PTQ players playing at my local store, we even had a world champion), the next week blue would win, the next red, the next green. Even white Angels won once in a while. Counterspell was everywhere and yet somehow, there were 5 different colors and more than 5 decks winning tournaments. Those days were glorious.
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There was no White Angel decks winning anything of consequence during Urza's. It was a busted combo deck that was the best deck until something got banned, then some other combo deck was the best deck until something got banned, then it was another combo deck that was the best deck till something got banned. Also during that time they had an emergency banning that broke the usual banning cycle due to the stupidity of Memory Jar. After like 20000 cards were banned in standard the best deck still had Yawgmoth's Bargain, Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Ritual, Grim Monolith, etc, with 4 Vampiric Tutors and Academy Rectors and even got to run Duress to protect it's combo. None of the decks you listed could reasonably beat any of the combo decks unless you were talking about Mono Black aggro with Hatred which was basically a combo deck smashed together with an aggro deck.
 
Heylel

Heylel

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Urza's was a weird time. No one disputes that.

However, there's very little difference between a counterspell and powerful removal, which modern has in spades.
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Heylel_sl said:
Urza's was a weird time. No one disputes that.

However, there's very little difference between a counterspell and powerful removal, which modern has in spades.
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This is true for permanents but you can't Doom Blade a topdecked Scapeshift.
 
Heylel

Heylel

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Sterling_sl said:
This is true for permanents but you can't Doom Blade a topdecked Scapeshift.
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No, but frankly Scapeshift needs other counters beyond Cryptic Command that are playable and can prevent the game from ending on the spot. Mana Leak and Spell Pierce aren't gonna work there.
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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Sorry for ditching on the thread.I didn't noticed the replies. Let me restate my point. I'm against the counterspell mechanic, or effect. The act of canceling another spell completely.

First, I'm a MBC control player at heart. While I started on planeshift, it wasn't until Odyssey that I got into competitive magic. My mbc was mutilate, edict, innocent blood, nantuko shade, cabal confers, etc. It was on this environment that such "awesome" decks such as 10 counterspells + tog + upheaval, or 10 counterspells gave us hours of entertainment... not.

The mechanic of counterspell is what I dislike. Everything else in the game can be dealt with by at least one more color.

Black: discard a black ability is countered by green return to hand cards, or by white return directly to play if it is a creature.
Red: damage, can be countered by gaining life white or prevention.
Green: trample, regeneration, white removes from the game, blue makes creatures not untap.
Blue: card drawing engine, black discard counterpart.
White: life gain, vigilance, tokes, can be dealt by other colors.

For almost everything there are check and balances.. except for counterspell. It's only counter is to explicitly put it on the card rules " this card cant be countered". The fact that you have to put it on the text of the cards is a testament to how ridiculously powered the mechanic is. Imagine if every artifact had "It can not be destroyed", now powerfull they would be. Counterspell and " can not be countered" is the opposite as in everything can be destroyed, except this.
The counterspell effect is the equivalent of playing with a card that says "destroy target non land permanent you opponent has, It can only be played on your opponent's turn". That is how powerful the effect is, a one for one. My card for your card, oh and btw i have 10 more of those.

The less counterspell mechanic cards are out there, the better the game of magic is. The only way that legacy broke out of its blue stronghold, is by forcing the mechanic of counterspell out via Abrupt Decay, and even with abrupt decay counterspell is still prevalent. Big FU to counter-Top, while im at it.
Magic is supposed to be two players interacting with each other using multiple colors, not one player sitting back, playing solitary magic and then winning the game.
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Counterspells are just about as interactive as you can get since they can't do anything until something is on the stack. And your green spells returning cards to hand works just the same against counterspells as it does against discard.
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Sterling_sl said:
This is true for permanents but you can't Doom Blade a topdecked Scapeshift.
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Which is why I've been advocating the reprint of Counterspell. Well one of the reasons. I'd just like to see some real control decks in Modern besides the sorta fringe Grixis one.
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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not if they get **gasp** countered.

Reread my post with the edit I added one more sentence.

Let me say this again. Counterspell is a one for one trade, and in the case of cryptic command an even better trade, without any cost to blue. Discard on the same token is almost as bad, but at least thoughtseize makes you pay life, but even with that is super strong. but at least there is only at that mana cost.
No other color has that one for one, without restrictions.
 
Heylel

Heylel

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lendarios_sl said:
The less counterspell mechanic cards are out there, the better the game of magic is. The only way that legacy broke out of its blue stronghold, is by forcing the mechanic of counterspell out via Abrupt Decay, and even with abrupt decay counterspell is still prevalent. Big FU to counter-Top, while im at it.
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You really think counters are why blue is the dominant color in legacy? ONE deck plays Counterspell. It plays 1, maybe 2 copies. Blue decks play Force of Will for game 1 solely to have a chance vs. fast combo, and they come out in games 2 and 3 vs anything else. Legacy is dominated by blue because Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe provide cheap card selection and information while also matching well with the land base and threats of the format. It has exactly zero to do with Counterspell the card, and only a little to do with counters as a whole.

Christ, even in Vintage where you have Mana Drain, people don't play 4 of it. Counters are to give you an out to people doing stupid shit. They don't win anything.
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Heylel_sl said:
You really think counters are why blue is the dominant color in legacy? ONE deck plays Counterspell. Blue decks play Force of Will for game 1 solely to have a chance vs. fast combo, and they come out in games 2 and 3 vs anything else. Legacy is dominated by blue because Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe provide cheap card selection and information while also matching well with the land base and threats of the format. It has exactly zero to do with Counterspell the card, and only a little to do with counters as a whole.
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Yeah blue is more about cantrips and velocity in Legacy than countermagic. Force of Will is something that helps keep degenerate combo from being overwhelming though. Ban Brainstorm and see what happens to Legacy. A format of Belcher, Dredge and Storm might be fun for a little while, but I'd imagine it would get old pretty fast.
 
Heylel

Heylel

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Banning Brainstorm would just mean Preordain becomes a 4x and decks become a little slower. Maybe you end up with fewer fetches and a more diverse mana base, but I doubt it.

Banning Force of Will would break the format in half. You'd have 3 or 4 turn 1 combo decks and that would be it.
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Heylel_sl said:
You really think counters are why blue is the dominant color in legacy? ONE deck plays Counterspell. It plays 1, maybe 2 copies. Blue decks play Force of Will for game 1 solely to have a chance vs. fast combo, and they come out in games 2 and 3 vs anything else. Legacy is dominated by blue because Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe provide cheap card selection and information while also matching well with the land base and threats of the format. It has exactly zero to do with Counterspell the card, and only a little to do with counters as a whole.

Christ, even in Vintage where you have Mana Drain, people don't play 4 of it. Counters are to give you an out to people doing stupid shit. They don't win anything.
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I will always remember winning a lot of Magic matches back in the 90s by Mana Draining something then Mind Twisting their entire hand. Good times. I miss playing those old YMG and Gray Matter 1k events every month or so.
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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I'm talking about counterspell the effect, not the card. On legacy too many decks use the counterspell effect to win. Do you want a list of the decks that use 10 or more counterspeels effects on the main deck?
Because of the top of my head here are some.
RUG delver
Miracles,
Melfork,
BuG Delver
 
Sterling

Sterling

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Legacy would literally be a bunch of fast combo decks without counters. How interactive is it when you get to look at your 7 cards and die before you get a turn?
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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black->discard,
red ->land destruction,
white ->player cant be targeted this turn, silence.
blue -> redirect
green-> (elfs and win in 3 turns!!!)
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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Sterling_sl said:
Legacy would literally be a bunch of fast combo decks without counters. How interactive is it when you get to look at your 7 cards and die before you get a turn?
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The existence of 1 turn kill combos is a mistake and those combos should be banned. Channel-fireball, flash-hulk, storm under certain conditions. They are examples of solitary magic you know right.
 
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