MTG thread

Holy fuck, Christopher Rush died.

RIP Chris Rush, One of Magic: The Gatherings Coolest Artists

Arbitrary_sl said:

"Hey, what's the power/toughness of your 'goyf?"
"THIS ISN'T MTGO I DON'T HAVTA TELL YOU"

Hate that ruling. Hate everything about it.

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Err.. what? You can't purposefully withhold information that is freely available. An opponent is under no obligation to remind you of what their P/T is, but if you specifically ask they are supposed to tell you. Now, they could technically just hand you their graveyard and be a dick about it by making you figure it out yourself, but they can't say 'no, not telling you'.

Same thing if I ask how many cards in your hand, you have to show me and/or answer. You aren't required to keep track of that as the game goes on.

Derpa_sl said:

Holy fuck, Christopher Rush died.

RIP Chris Rush, One of Magic: The Gatherings Coolest Artists

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I feel like he had a booth at GP Vegas this year and if he was the guy behind it at the time I was walking by, he didn't seem particularly old or frail (early-mid 60s?). Kind of surprised at this.

enzie_sl said:

Err.. what? You can't purposefully withhold information that is freely available. An opponent is under no obligation to remind you of what their P/T is, but if you specifically ask they are supposed to tell you. Now, they could technically just hand you their graveyard and be a dick about it by making you figure it out yourself, but they can't say 'no, not telling you'.

Same thing if I ask how many cards in your hand, you have to show me and/or answer. You aren't required to keep track of that as the game goes on.

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You actually do have to keep track of public game state information and if your opponent asks you information, you need to tell him. You also need to keep track of this correctly, because you could get a penalty for misrepresenting the game state otherwise (your opponent can also receive the same penalty).

In Omaha last year I was in a Bogle mirror and my opponent kept being a dick when I asked him his creature's P/T. So of course I was back to him when he asked me mine. It turned into a stupid game of counting up all of each other's enchantments the whole game instead of just saying how large the creatures were. After I did the research to find out the above about public information.

enzie_sl said:

I feel like he had a booth at GP Vegas this year and if he was the guy behind it at the time I was walking by, he didn't seem particularly old or frail (early-mid 60s?). Kind of surprised at this.

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He's been to most of the GPs that I've attended and drew an alternate VIP playmat for GP Denver last year. I think most people assumed he was in decent health.

Wayne England also died yesterday. He was the artist for the Lorwyn command cycle most notably.

Chickenpants_sl said:

You actually do have to keep track of public game state information and if your opponent asks you information, you need to tell him. You also need to keep track of this correctly, because you could get a penalty for misrepresenting the game state otherwise (your opponent can also receive the same penalty).

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I think you misunderstood what I meant. If my opponent goes to block my 4/4 with his 3/4 tarmogoyf, and no mana/tricks available, I don't have to remind him it's a 3/4 if something changed since the previous turn when it was 4/5. If he asks before blocks, yes, I would tell him. Volunteering information and keeping track of the game state when it needs clarification are two different things. I was referring to volunteering information.

I just keep a Tarmogoyf Die out when I'm playing Goyf.

enzie_sl said:

Err.. what? You can't purposefully withhold information that is freely available. An opponent is under no obligation to remind you of what their P/T is, but if you specifically ask they are supposed to tell you. Now, they could technically just hand you their graveyard and be a dick about it by making you figure it out yourself, but they can't say 'no, not telling you'.

Same thing if I ask how many cards in your hand, you have to show me and/or answer. You aren't required to keep track of that as the game goes on.

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The power and toughness of a creature (e.g. Goyf) is derived information. At Competitive REL an opponent is not obligated to provide derived information when asked.

Ok fine.. technically if you phrase it 'how big is the tarmogoyf' they dont have to answer, but 99% of players will. If you get the 1% of dicks who think that's a valid strategy somehow, you can ask 'what are all the card types are in your graveyard' and they HAVE to answer that correctly/hand you their graveyard or get an infraction. That is game state information, not derived information.

enzie_sl said:

Ok fine.. technically if you phrase it 'how big is the tarmogoyf' they dont have to answer, but 99% of players will. If you get the 1% of dicks who think that's a valid strategy somehow, you can ask 'what are all the card types are in your graveyard' and they HAVE to answer that correctly/hand you their graveyard or get an infraction. That is game state information, not derived information.

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Arbitrary is doing a semantics argument on par with the best right now... (Coming from a semantics guy!)

It was just that I remember that debate going on at one point regarding what information you had to volunteer and I was on the side that wanted physical to effectively be the same as MTGO. I never, ever liked the division between derived information and free information.

Keeping track of certain things is skill testing, such as combat math. The intent is that being able to figure out that information (derive it) should be an edge if you are better then your opponent in that regard. However, some neckbeard rules lawyers use it to make the game more annoying. These people tend to not actually be that good at the game, but want to think they are. All the best players I've ever encountered, and practically every pro, don't bother with asinine crap like that. They know it's trivial to figure out, and only slows the game down. Actually forgetting/missing something and trying to shortcut is pretty obvious to figure out.

It's that same type of player that will make you announce a trigger every single turn on upkeep even if you've announced it for 3 turns in a row already. Best example I can think of was when obzedat was legal, if I was trying to just play quickly for the sake of the clock and drew my card as I announced obzedat's trigger, they'd try to argue I 'forgot' the trigger because I drew first. Or, said 'pass' and then reached for obzedat to flip exile him as they drew a card (because I was passing priority and then waited to see if they did anything end of turn, and them drawing a card signified they weren't). I'd then call a judge, who would inevitably say it was caught quickly enough to not be a 'missed' trigger and then I'd slow down and make a point of announcing every little trigger that normally is shortcut'ed, and often that match would then end in a draw that they'd get all pissy about as well.

To be clear, at Regular REL (FNM, things like that), all derived information is treated as free information.

In a Competitive REL event, you aren't obligated to answer but any answer must be truthful.

enzie_sl said:

Keeping track of certain things is skill testing, such as combat math. The intent is that being able to figure out that information (derive it) should be an edge if you are better then your opponent in that regard.

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I just don't think the game is made any better when a question of "hey, what's that dude's current power and toughness" can be met with shrugged shoulders. I'm a casual limited player so it's never, ever going to matter for exactly the reason that Heylel gave. It's just something that I disagree with on a conceptual level.

In this specific example, I, and 99% of competitive players, agree with you. I was talking about derived information in general, which I do agree with. I have won many games because my opponent didn't do their combat math right, or didn't pay attention to how much mana I had untapped, or some other thing they had trouble keeping track of in a complicated board state. It's a skill you need to be good at magic. Not everyone needs to be good at magic either, though. Like you said, you play the game casually. Awesome, if that's what is fun for you, great, keep doing it and these rules don't impact you at all.
I personally only enjoy the game when I can play it competitively. In fact, since BFZ came out I'm currently not playing because I don't have the time/expendable income to keep up with the game at that level. I'm still listening to podcasts and reading articles, as I intend to come back at some point. I was getting close to breaking through to being a 'grinder', had made starcity's top 70 this past year and started getting day 2's at the GPs I attended.

In your exact example, to think of it another way, the opponent actually can't answer that question because it relies on your graveyard as well. You are technically asking them to keep track of your graveyard for you. It's similar to asking 'how many instants are in our hands, combined?' they don't necessarily know the answer. Now, in my experience, players would generally answer something like 'well, I've got artifact, creature and land, you?' and not simply shrug.

enzie_sl said:

Not everyone needs to be good at magic either, though.

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Dude, go fuck yourself. Holy shit.

Almost won back to back sealed events yesterday. Got to the final 4 of the 2nd sealed and lost in epic fashion. I won game 1, lost game 2 and game 3 I had press into service but could only get him to 1 life and lost next turn. So damn close! However I am now officially the highest rated limited player in the world so I guess there's that!

Also, anyone live near Washington DC that is highly proficient in limited and the current oath/bfz format? There's a team sealed grand prix event with a 15k first prize which needs a team of 3. Looking to put together a team to play in it.

Arbitrary_sl said:

Dude, go fuck yourself. Holy shit.

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Uhh.. if you are offended by that statement, I don't know what to tell you. It takes time and effort to be good at magic. Not everyone has, or wants, to do that. There isn't anything wrong with that, though. Games are meant to be fun, if being competitive at a certain game isn't fun to you, then there's no reason to do it.
There's plenty of other games I barely play that I'm 'bad' at. Warmachine and Hearthstone, specifically. I can accept I'm not good at those games, nothing offensive about that.

Holy fuck you double downed.