Sevens
Log Wizard
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I have empathy, but not when someone gets what they deserve.
You did hear about the sneak attack of Pearl Harbor?
They simply fucked around and found out.
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Oppenheimer (2023)
- Thread starter Khalan
- Start date
You did hear about the sneak attack of Pearl Harbor?
They simply fucked around and found out.
Big Phoenix
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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Hard to feel empathy for a group of people who showed the levels of barbarity they did up to and during WW2.
And dont think for a second they wouldnt nuked us if they had the chance;
Lookout Air Raids - Wikipedia
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It's difficult to hold the citizens of a totalitarian regime responsible for the war crimes of their government. But neither are they completely innocent.
Were the hardliners really holding out for Soviet mediation? Would a demonstration in a empty field somewhere have the same effect? Did the "barbarity" of bombing a city allow the Emperor to save face and end the war even a week quicker, thus saving the lives of Chinese prisoners dying in camps and Japanese citizens dying in ongoing fire bombings?
Were the hardliners really holding out for Soviet mediation? Would a demonstration in a empty field somewhere have the same effect? Did the "barbarity" of bombing a city allow the Emperor to save face and end the war even a week quicker, thus saving the lives of Chinese prisoners dying in camps and Japanese citizens dying in ongoing fire bombings?
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TBT-TheBigToe
Gemcutter
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Cybsled
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Whether or not the atomic bombs needed to be dropped like they were will be debated forever. It’s all conjecture surrounding a very complex issue. However, the timing of the surrender following the 2nd bomb suggests they influenced that greatly, regardless as to the USSR declaration of war. Realistically, the Soviets lacked the amphibious capacity to launch any meaningful attack on the mainland in a reasonable timetable
As for the citizens of a totalitarian regime being innocent or not, that isn’t cut and dry either. It’s one thing to know of what the regime is doing vs not knowing. And even if you do know, it’s very difficult to be that person who steps forward to do something about it, especially if the regime very publicly shows the consequences of that and they encourage their own citizens to report on others, making it hard to know whom to trust.
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Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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It's not conjecture, and the remaining debate is just to prop 50 years of Cold War propaganda.
Japan surrendered because USSR entered the war, not because of the atomic bombs. This is well documented now.
This betrays any real knowledge of the issue. Japan wasnt looking to fend off US singlehandedly and then all of a sudden decided to quit when USSR joined US. Japan was actually looking to USSR to broker a conditional surrender to preserve Hirohito instead of the unconditional surrender demanded by US. Once USSR entered the war it didnt matter what amphibious capability they had or didnt have, Japan knew that their last hope for a brokered peace was gone.
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Cybsled
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Right, but the bomb probably forced them to capitulate sooner. USSR formally declaring war and eliminating the 3rd party negotiation definitely factored into the eventual surrender, but the bombs were most assuredly what prompted the surrender when it occurred. The only ace in the hole they had left was making a land invasion as costly as possible in the hopes that would give them some bargaining power, Soviets or no. Atomic weapons completely eliminated that as an option.
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Downhammer
Vyemm Raider
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I've got a pretty good FSO on my program. A rare one with a sense of humor. He sends out monthly bulletins about various security issues and this month's headline was "Don't be an Oppenheimer: why sleeping with hot communists is a bad thing"
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Burns
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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The surrender was not cut and dry and the movie Japan's Longest Day goes into how contentious the surrender was. Would the military command been more inclined to defy the Emperor, had the bombs not been dropped? Maybe.
Dude does a pretty good job laying out the arguments over bomb usage, in short form:
Then also did a video on the actual bomb runs:
Dude does a pretty good job laying out the arguments over bomb usage, in short form:
Then also did a video on the actual bomb runs:
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Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
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You know, the interesting thing about this is,
Death (especially immediate disintegration style) really only affects those who know/knew the decedent. The dead people don't know they're dead, and even if it was painful once it's over they feel nothing forever. If you're talking about a bomb that destroys an entire city, despite 200k people dying, it's likely not even as bad something like the Twin Towers in 2001 with regard to individual suffering re: mourning of lost loved ones. When the entire circle of friends/family dies at the same time, there's not many people left to be harmed by those deaths beyond abstract "man that sucks!"
Just an interesting thought experiment, IMO. Emotional proximity to the decedents is the driver of suffering for deaths, so if that's largely removed the only thing left is abstract.
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Cybsled
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Immediate vaporization from an atomic blast really only occurs within a relatively short distance of the epicenter. Outside of that would be primarily killed by the concussive force/pressure wave and thermal exposure, then outside that is primarily varying degrees of radiation & thermal exposure. You can be looking at minutes or days before you die from the effects depending on proximity and relative protection.
Like for example, one survivor outside the epicenter but still in the high fatality area survived because they were wearing mostly all white and were swimming underwater when it happened. Classmates wearing dark clothing had their skin melt due to the increased absorption.
While I get your point about immediate family/survivors, just being in a different part of town when it happened could have had a profound impact on whether you survived or not
Like for example, one survivor outside the epicenter but still in the high fatality area survived because they were wearing mostly all white and were swimming underwater when it happened. Classmates wearing dark clothing had their skin melt due to the increased absorption.
While I get your point about immediate family/survivors, just being in a different part of town when it happened could have had a profound impact on whether you survived or not
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Those channels are pretty good, I would recommend for nice succinct summaries of recent combat operations and battles. Got me interested the Pacific theatre of WW2, which I've usually found boring for whatever reason.
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moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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9/10 for me, solid acting all around. Cillian Murphy was very good but I thought Robert Downey Jr. was amazing. Ton of name actors in this, I didn't even know Gary Oldman was Truman (excellent scene). Nolan has this ability to make almost every scene have some sort of tension and it was on full display in this movie. Highly recommend.
Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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They didn't give a shit about the atomic bombs. These are the same people who refused to capitulate after the firebombing of Tokyo which killed 120,000 people, more than either atomic bombing.
There has been historical research done by Japanese historians, using source material from Japanese imperial archives that confirms that the sole reason for Japanese capitulation was Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
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Chanur
Shit Posting Professional
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They may have thought that but there was no way the US was going to accept anything less than unconditional surrender from Japan. It didn't matter what the USSR said or did.
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