Overwatch

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
<Prior Amod>
48,307
284,611
The "git gud" posts here are amusing but they are pretty disingenuous. While I don't think anyone will deny your player skill is ultimately what decides a portion of your rank there are many outer influences that direct it. This is a blizzard game after all so if you wanna solo queue you have to be prepared for little Timmy. Little Timmy doesn't care about group comp, he doesn't ever pick a healer or tank no he eats paint chips and plays genii because OMGWTFBBQ I AM NINJA. This is the case in every Bliz game wether it's LFR or Ranked HoTS or ranked Overwatch. While it's true some can grind out of MMR hell even if they are a better player than their rank let's assume a 60% win ratio overall. In many cases that still ends up needing to play hundreds of rounds to grind out of the stupid leagues.

I have made some progress grinding up already but the KOTH being fucked explains a lot.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
My argument is just focusing on your own play isn't going to rank you up. If you lose a game you lose rank. Unless you're a pro you aren't carrying your team to victory every match.
Bad players have been saying that for years in all games with ladders. You're wrong, but, y'know... if it makes you feel better believe whatever you want.
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
7,946
7,136
ITT: people who have never participated in a ranking/ELO system before.

This argument has been to done 100 times over and you're all saying the same shit every bad does in every game. Bottom line is, if you are truly better than your rank, you will climb out of it eventually.

It's been the same in dota/league/cs for years, get over it. If you calibrate to 40 and then play 100 competitive games and remain at 40, then that's as good as you are, it isn't the system or your team holding you down, it's you.
 

Ravishing

Uninspiring Title
<Bronze Donator>
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FACT: You won't win every game.
FACT: There will be some losses that are caused by others
FACT: There will be some losses where you're the sole reason for the loss.
FACT: Some games are just unwinnable.
FACT: Some games are just unloseable.
FACT: Elo Hell is a myth.

Conclusion: Over time, you're the only reason you are where you are.
 

Amzin

Lord Nagafen Raider
2,917
361
The "git gud" posts here are amusing but they are pretty disingenuous. While I don't think anyone will deny your player skill is ultimately what decides a portion of your rank there are many outer influences that direct it. This is a blizzard game after all so if you wanna solo queue you have to be prepared for little Timmy. Little Timmy doesn't care about group comp, he doesn't ever pick a healer or tank no he eats paint chips and plays genii because OMGWTFBBQ I AM NINJA. This is the case in every Bliz game wether it's LFR or Ranked HoTS or ranked Overwatch. While it's true some can grind out of MMR hell even if they are a better player than their rank let's assume a 60% win ratio overall. In many cases that still ends up needing to play hundreds of rounds to grind out of the stupid leagues.

I have made some progress grinding up already but the KOTH being fucked explains a lot.
That's not unique to Blizzard games, sorry to inform you. And it also doesn't affect the reality of the situation. There's DECADES of data and statistics behind ELO systems and MMR, and unless Blizzard decided to ignore all of it (including what they've used and learned from over a decade of having ranked systems in almost every one of their games) it's all still applicable. There are maybe one in a million people who are truly outliers where the random factors add up and screw them for an extended period of time, but that's probably really close to ACTUALLY one in a million people.

This is the problem with all these debates, is they're not really debates... we know how human psychology works in these setups, we know how the statistics and data add up. The whole reason ranking systems are designed the way they are today is to appeal to our psychology and keep people playing, even when the front end doesn't represent the back end (League's system is a gigantic example of this). If you have a 51% win rate, you will climb, slowly but you will climb. All that takes is you being better, on average, than your opponents.

Remember that the enemy team actually has a HIGHER vulnerability to the randomness you bitch about because it's 6 randoms, whereas there's only 5 on your team. Which means if you truly are better than your opponents, you will win more games. People bitch about the random factors holding them back in every game since forever but it actually doesn't add up to reality when you consider that fact. Once again, the only 100% stable factor in your solo queue games is you.

Edit: Another way to consider that last point is that, if everyone complaining about DCs/Genji-wang-doodles on their team holding them back was actually correct, then you would be GUARANTEED to advance because your opposing team will always have 6 of those people, whereas you only have 5. The only excuse then becomes that the system is rigged against YOU especially for some reason, giving you a higher likelihood of spazoids on your team, which is obviously and blatantly not true for any of us. Thus, the problem is still... you.
 

Taloo_sl

shitlord
742
2
The argument I find so fucking retarded is the "troll fag won't play support". What kind of bullshit logic makes anyone think someone doing poorly on the character they want to play (which one assumes they have familiarity with) will improve the team by switching to a character they don't know, don't play well, or just don't "want" to play?

Then all too often those same fucking people will rage and talk shit about someone playing a character poorly! WE NEED A TANK BUT I'M AWESOME SOMEONE ELSE MUST DO IT. OMG, YOU'RE A TERRIBLE TANK. Seriously fucking dumb. Guess what, if you're in a game with them you're on their level. Most people who climb out of ELO/MMR hell do so, so they don't have to cry about it.

As an aside, if you think solo q doesn't accurately reflect your skill level you're just ignorant or in denial. It works the same way as a 6 stack. You go up until you get knocked down by your betters. There are more variables. But that just means your high and low points will be "slightly" farther apart. We ALL end up exactly where we velong.
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
FACT: You won't win every game.
FACT: There will be some losses that are caused by others
FACT: There will be some losses where you're the sole reason for the loss.
FACT: Some games are just unwinnable.
FACT: Some games are just unloseable.
FACT: Elo Hell is a myth.

Conclusion: Over time, you're the only reason you are where you are.
Elo hell is very real in CS:GO where ak-dmg is full of smurfs and hackers. However I don't think Overwatch has a very prominent smurfing issue as of yet, and I've only ran into 1 hacker so far so things seem pretty alright.
 

Ravishing

Uninspiring Title
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Elo hell is very real in CS:GO where ak-dmg is full of smurfs and hackers. However I don't think Overwatch has a very prominent smurfing issue as of yet, and I've only ran into 1 hacker so far so things seem pretty alright.
Do the best players always manage to get top ranked?

There is no Elo hell.

If you just mean a certain tier is more toxic than another, then sure.. but we're talking about ranking up, not toxicity.
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
I'm not talking about toxicity, I'm talking about losing tons of games due to playing Global Elites and hackers at a much lower rank, therefore being stuck at said rank for a much longer period of time as you should. How is that not considered ELO hell?

But that's more on the system than it is on you yourself.
 

Araxen

Golden Baronet of the Realm
10,266
7,627
The argument I find so fucking retarded is the "troll fag won't play support". What kind of bullshit logic makes anyone think someone doing poorly on the character they want to play (which one assumes they have familiarity with) will improve the team by switching to a character they don't know, don't play well, or just don't "want" to play?

Then all too often those same fucking people will rage and talk shit about someone playing a character poorly! WE NEED A TANK BUT I'M AWESOME SOMEONE ELSE MUST DO IT. OMG, YOU'RE A TERRIBLE TANK. Seriously fucking dumb. Guess what, if you're in a game with them you're on their level. Most people who climb out of ELO/MMR hell do so, so they don't have to cry about it.

As an aside, if you think solo q doesn't accurately reflect your skill level you're just ignorant or in denial. It works the same way as a 6 stack. You go up until you get knocked down by your betters. There are more variables. But that just means your high and low points will be "slightly" farther apart. We ALL end up exactly where we velong.
If you can't play at least one character from every role(Offense/Defense/Tank/Support) you shouldn't be in ranked at all. There are derp level characters in every role(Junkrat/Lucio/Winston/Reaper) so there isn't an excuse. Lvl 25 shouldn't be the determining factor to be able to play ranked but time played in each role should be. Make it 2 hours played minimum for each role. The game is based on Hero switching and if you can't do that you are detriment to your team. Go play Quick Play if you can only play one character.
 

KCXIV

Molten Core Raider
1,456
180
FACT: You won't win every game.
FACT: There will be some losses that are caused by others
FACT: There will be some losses where you're the sole reason for the loss.
FACT: Some games are just unwinnable.
FACT: Some games are just unloseable.
FACT: Elo Hell is a myth.

Conclusion: Over time, you're the only reason you are where you are.
Over time yes, but when you get grouped up with people trying to play Call of Duty and not giving a fuck about team composition or any kind of team play, You are just fucked. I had one group yesterday that would just go 1 by 1 the whole match through a door where the whole other team was camping. I told them, hey go around the side, there isnt anyone there and you could get to the point. They didnt give no fucks, keep train dying through the door trying to get their kills up. lol I was the only person that even got to the point.
 

Ravishing

Uninspiring Title
<Bronze Donator>
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I'm not talking about toxicity, I'm talking about losing tons of games due to playing Global Elites and hackers at a much lower rank, therefore being stuck at said rank for a much longer period of time as you should. How is that not considered ELO hell?

But that's more on the system than it is on you yourself.
All games have hackers and smurfs and they are as likely to be on your team as the opponent's.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
Blows my mind how otherwise intelligent adults just cannot grasp how a ladder works and how they aren't as good at games as they thought they were. I look forward to an endless litany of complaints about teammates from people who never make mistakes or have a bad game.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,588
11,903
I dunno who is suprised about the ladder bitching. This is the same thread with constant turret and Bastion and hero stacking complaints.
 

Boloboy

Bronze Knight of the Realm
315
7
Wish they had a trial for this. Im considering buying but havent played an fps in ages...
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
Hahaha yup. I've been playing with mostly 70s and it feels pretty even every single game except the rare game where it queues a full solo group vs a group of 3 & group of 2. Feel like they did an alright job at balancing MMR for now.
 

Kharza-kzad_sl

shitlord
1,080
0
I think there are two comparisons here. People's initial ranking, and people discussing how your rank will become over millions of games and geological time. I tend to agree with both.
 

KCXIV

Molten Core Raider
1,456
180
Blows my mind how otherwise intelligent adults just cannot grasp how a ladder works and how they aren't as good at games as they thought they were. I look forward to an endless litany of complaints about teammates from people who never make mistakes or have a bad game.
who said no one makes mistakes? we are humans, we fuck up. its what we do. considering this is a team based game, you have to rely on others to know what the hell they are doing and play together.