Quaid
Trump's Staff
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I'd say its stunning when I think about it in comparisson to what Brad's new team will likely be budgeted to pump out.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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iannis
Musty Nester
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The problem with the "fuck you, I'll make what I want" visionary game design is that most companies who try it... well, maybe they did what they wanted to. And what they wanted to do was complete shit. I mean it's good in theory and some studios can do it. Obsidian is about the only one I can think of that isn't defunct. But that's mostly because I don't know the name of the small European ones off the top of my head. Those guys making the divinity series are pretty awesome. And Obsidian is using crowdfunding as a tool to enable their approach to game design. I wouldn't even say it's kickstarter or that philosophy that's the problem. The problem is simply that, like is the case with most hollywood movies, most of the writers and directors suck at it.
Well, you can't even really claim that about the writers. It's not fair. Scripts are generally written by committee and final cuts of the movie are probably edited by committee unless the director has a heavy name. Much like these games are.
The MMO : Hollywood analogy is a very good one, but it's not great news for the MMO industry. Movies have been reduced to pure money grabbing spectacle. And they do grab some money. God knows why, but they do. Serialized television is where the actual work and innovations are happening.
It's not a mystery why SoE is betting on EQ:Minecraft.
Well, you can't even really claim that about the writers. It's not fair. Scripts are generally written by committee and final cuts of the movie are probably edited by committee unless the director has a heavy name. Much like these games are.
The MMO : Hollywood analogy is a very good one, but it's not great news for the MMO industry. Movies have been reduced to pure money grabbing spectacle. And they do grab some money. God knows why, but they do. Serialized television is where the actual work and innovations are happening.
It's not a mystery why SoE is betting on EQ:Minecraft.
I would be fine with VG 2.0 frankly. Imagine what he could do with a decent game engine and good tools right out of the box like the ones EQN seems to have developed. I agree with you on the producer but one of VG's biggest issue was that abortion of a unreal engine they frankensteined into existence. I remember reading a interview with a former employee or hell it might have been posted on the old board I can not remember where he said the tools they had were almost non existent and it took forever to do anything with it so Brad with a decent engine and good tools could be dangerous.
For all the issues with VG in time played it ranks 3rd for me behind EQ and WoW so I will always be interested in what he is up to even if it is a small niche game. There is this fallacy since WoW that you need 1+ mil subs to make money and that simply is not the case. If you keep a lid on production costs and do not try to hire half of Rhode Island you will be ok if you make a decent game.
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Yes, I think our disagreement can be distilled down to your edit. Listen, I'm not suggesting that game devs do bizarre things that make no sense and needlessly jeopardize shareholder stake. I understand that there is a very necessary business end to this industry and you have to act accordingly. What I'm saying is that in the mmo industry the pendulum has swung too far in the 'play it safe' direction and the result is the bland, repetitive, uninspired series of games we have seen recently. This is largely due to the mentality you espouse regarding things 'we have to have' in mmos due to landscapes and expectations. All I am saying is that I have a desire to see more companies break away from the mold in ashareholder responsible wayand dare to take the genre in a better, if less 'safe' direction.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Jesus Christ.
How about some creative games that are fresh with controlled producing? Common sense hits the MMORPG industry after 4,302 years of shit in the box for $500 Alex.
Or I know, we can all stop buying their shit too and they would still be out of a job.
Think before posting.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think Brad and SoE might just be doing something that could change the industry in a good way. I'll just pat myself on the back and the others who have said it too over the years.. But I think they will be lending Brad tech and possibly the IP of EQ or VG. Basically allowing for the big company to make the game that reaches the biggest audience then leasing out that tech to a small indie team for some niche projects. It's smart, efficient and allows them to reach more of the market. Why spend all that money on just one game when you can reuse a bunch of shit and make multiple ones?
Now he just needs to nail the game.. UT won't say it but he has a semi.. Brad makes fun games
Now he just needs to nail the game.. UT won't say it but he has a semi.. Brad makes fun games
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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No, actually I don't. Brad didn't make a fun game. He made a pretty damn awesome creative world. There is a difference.
What came out of all of it was design mistake after design mistake that just grew into emergent gameplay. Trains, Feign Death pulling, Kiting, AOE XP Groups, Multiquesting, Z-Axis pull downs of Dain... I could go on and on here. This is what made EQ, EQ. And all of that shit was discovered and mastered by the player base - the developers just shrugged their shoulders, laughed and said, "Wow look at that" and counted the cash. And when SOE / Brad / Vogel - anyone else from the 2003'ish way of life over at SOE tried to replicate it, they all pounded their faces into a wall wondering why they can't ever have back the days of yesteryear.
The reason why?They never created the emergent gameplay.The players exploited and abused the system and it took on a life of it's own.
This will never be repeated. Ever. And it is also something that these guys cannot get around their relic heads. Which doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering the complete lack of common sense displayed by some of these folks.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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EQ was fun. I don't know the ins and outs of what was intended and what wasn't.. see for me camping Jboots and finally getting them was fun. As far as the hands off approach.. it kind of worked so would of been worse if they did fix all that shit?
Plus VG was pretty cool. I just don't know who deserves the credit as a lot of SoE Devs put some serious time into that game after the firings.
You gotta give the guy some credit.. I'm not here for a defensive campaign for Brad but I've been beating the drum for a niche PvE game and he basically answered it. It's hard for me to care about any of the past at this point b/c there isn't anyone else stepping up to make that kind of game.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Not at all. I am glad none of that was fixed. My point being that McQuaid out of anyone didn't design ANY OF THAT. The entirety/fun and what brought the world to life were a series ofdesign mistakes
If McQuaid actuallyintendedto do any of that, he would be a genius. But guess what? He didn't. I'll give him credit for making a great world with a lot of lore, some cool landmarks, and building community and player interdependence. He was responsible for that. (As well as ripping off some ideas some of his old table top DM's had when it came to the world) But 75% of the game itself and the game play that followed wasn't by design. And that means he was lucky as shit.
VG Sucked. It's been over 7 years and it still sucks.
Diplomacy was the only fun thing that came out of it, and that was an embedded card game. Let's take off the rosy glasses here talking about Vanguard. The game was a horrid mess back then, and it still fucking is.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Lol there are people who enjoyed VG man. I actually thought the class system was awesome and some of their dungeons were top notch. By no means was it perfect but it had some good qualities. I'm sorry but I just can't be upset that Brad is making another game. I'm glad he is. Because he's the only guy that comes up with a "vision" that suits my play style. Let's see what happens but you seem pretty disappointed that this is even happening.. Which sucks b/c the market needs some niche PvE games and nobody of worth is stepping up. There will be positive unknowns that come from this that could benefit us.
I get what you're saying about new blood but that new blood needs to step up and make something. There are outlets now to make money for a project.
Bruman
Golden Squire
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This is kinda what happens when people boil down arguments to great intellectual statements like "sucks".
The implementation of VG "sucks" from a technological side. It's been a nightmare on the software side for 7 years, and anytime they gain any population, it rears it's head again.
Design-wise, as in - on paper, it's a great game, with interesting classes, dungeons, and ideas. No instances, excellent crafting system (albeit too grindy IMO), fun Diplo, etc. But the technological implementation is never to be done right.
I still have plans to play it some more one day anyways
Well Ut is right. All the things that made EQ,EQ weren't there on purpose. Still, Brad did a good job creating a fun world with his team. I do agree Brad making a new game is probably the best thing in the mmo industry atm. I only say this because there is a lot to learned by his successes or fuckups, and I have no faith in EQN. It is looking more like a 10 year old game each day I hear about it.
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Yeah no shit, where is all this new blood? GW2? Maybe TSW? Ok, yeah they were OK games, but nothing that was extraordinary. Another play a month and quit mmo. Where is all the fresh blood mmo on kickstarter?
As to emergent and EQ, well yeah it was emergent because it was the first of its kind. Its easy to sit here now in 2013 and say that EQ back in 1999 was all shitty design mistakes that worked out, accidents. Well, yeah, they were accidents, but they were good accidents and they DID work out. I dont care which designer or producer you put in that role back in 1999, they would of made their own mistakes which would of lead to their own emergent game play. Because there was no precedent set as to design for a mmorpg. And mixing a FPS and a diku MUD in a ful fleshed out 3D world is 100% different than a diku text MUD. They had no clue how the player base was going to attack their game. (People are fucking cleaver) But you know what? At least they had the balls to leave most of the shit as is, instead of nerfing everything to the ground and making everything bland at the same time. Instead they worked and designed around it. That was a design decision wasnt it? The "Trains, Feign Death pulling, Kiting, AOE XP Groups, Multiquesting, Z-Axis pull downs of Dain, twinking, powerleveling".... They left it in. They could of nerfed all that shit with one patch. and probably made their life easier at the same time. But they DECIDED not to.
This is why we dont have emergent gameplay today because designers already know the design pitfalls, because they know mmo players behavior. And if they do overlook something, it gets nerfed to the ground within a week of release. Which in turn gives the game a bland locked down feel from the beginning. (WOW compared to EQ or even WoW vanilla compared to todays WoW)
As to emergent and EQ, well yeah it was emergent because it was the first of its kind. Its easy to sit here now in 2013 and say that EQ back in 1999 was all shitty design mistakes that worked out, accidents. Well, yeah, they were accidents, but they were good accidents and they DID work out. I dont care which designer or producer you put in that role back in 1999, they would of made their own mistakes which would of lead to their own emergent game play. Because there was no precedent set as to design for a mmorpg. And mixing a FPS and a diku MUD in a ful fleshed out 3D world is 100% different than a diku text MUD. They had no clue how the player base was going to attack their game. (People are fucking cleaver) But you know what? At least they had the balls to leave most of the shit as is, instead of nerfing everything to the ground and making everything bland at the same time. Instead they worked and designed around it. That was a design decision wasnt it? The "Trains, Feign Death pulling, Kiting, AOE XP Groups, Multiquesting, Z-Axis pull downs of Dain, twinking, powerleveling".... They left it in. They could of nerfed all that shit with one patch. and probably made their life easier at the same time. But they DECIDED not to.
This is why we dont have emergent gameplay today because designers already know the design pitfalls, because they know mmo players behavior. And if they do overlook something, it gets nerfed to the ground within a week of release. Which in turn gives the game a bland locked down feel from the beginning. (WOW compared to EQ or even WoW vanilla compared to todays WoW)
Actually that would make him sitting right around a F in any college campus with his 50% rating. But I feel you on the F+ for effort. Havn't you watched trumps show, if your in charge of the team, YOUR FIRED!
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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They didn't design around it. They just kept doing what they were doing. They did try to stop twinking with trivial loot code and soft caps. And did so later in EQ's life which was another boneheaded decision. This was the one time they went against the player model and it blew up in their face (Like it should have). Nerfing all of that wouldn't have made anything easier for them. They built this thing on a 2 axis tank simulator engine. Watching them try to stop this would have been hilarious.
All I am saying is lets not get too crazy about how Brad is the new hope for MMORPG's when he hasn't done anything positive for the industry for the last 15 years, and the positive marks he made on it before that was a hilarious, albeit magical, dart toss into a 50 MPH headwind that somehow ended up hitting the center of the board.
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Of course not, at least Im not. But even in the shitty VG game he had some twinkling of brilliance, so that being said, yeah, Ill be looking out for his new game, if im not too old by then.
Come on, now youre just being silly. There was a lot of work that was done to make EQ what it was. While, yes Im sure some of the shit that made EQ special was an accident, most of it was not.
vGrade
Potato del Grande
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It will go like this.
Step 1: Introduce EQN aka EQEZ and EQHardcore
2: Hardcore players make fun of the kids playing the dumbed down version of said game
3: Casual and bad players flock to hardcore version after months of internet lol'ing at them to try and be hip
4: After months of complaining that hardcore version is too hard we are stuck with EQEz x's 2
Step 1: Introduce EQN aka EQEZ and EQHardcore
2: Hardcore players make fun of the kids playing the dumbed down version of said game
3: Casual and bad players flock to hardcore version after months of internet lol'ing at them to try and be hip
4: After months of complaining that hardcore version is too hard we are stuck with EQEz x's 2