Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Yes, Brad's major challenge then, is creating a player ecosystem and a requirement for interdependence in this modern, screwed up, ADD-riddled market that forces so many single-player elements.

Getting a buff as a newbie in FP or EC from higher level players is a good example of where a player begins to see this interdependence. EverQuest, by a mix of design and accident, fostered this. But just take a moment to reflect about everything involved just to get this: a level 5 necro wanting the same buff as a level 50 at the EC tunnel, SoW.

First and most obvious, making the skill available to every class by multiclassing or a unique skill system dilutes the power of the spell. So then, buffs should only be available to the most minimum of classes. And buffs that do the same thing with different names as window dressing counts towards this minimum. It has to be as exclusive as it is useful, else it will no longer be useful, but almost expected or required.

Secondly, for a utility spell like SoW, it actually has to provide utility. And what I mean is, if travel is quick and painless like WoW, if I could hop on a flying mount that I purchased in the Pantheon online store or obtained via the super exclusive dildo edition, then its utility is further diluted to near useless.

Thirdly, if these two criteria, that it's exclusive as possible & provides actual utility because the world design supports that utility, then people have to actually have areasonfor that utility. Why would you care about SoW when in combat if the death penalty is wimpy and painless? If I lose no experience dying to the young kodiak (fuck you young kodiaks), and I actually run faster than SoW as a ghost back to my corpse, what is the reason for this spell? Its utility is greatly lessened due to the screwed-up design of another mechanic, the death penalty, which goes back to the second point.

You can see that many, many factors influence one another in design. You can't have useful spells if everyone has them, the world isn't designed for them, and the penalties are so lax that it actually offsets the benefit of the damned utility in the first place.

SoW was exclusive enough by the class design, useful enough due to the world design, and provided enough benefit through other design elements like the death penalty that people actually sought it out. Those kinds of mechanics working so well together is what made EverQuest what it was.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
I prefer a system like EQ with a large amount of spells/abilities per class but limited set of usable spells where most of those spells offer utility like Kreugen suggests. I think 10-15 is a good number. Each class is going to have core skills no matter what (Rogue backstab, Shaman slow, Cleric heals etc) that everyone will always have ready, but what defines a player should be how they use their utility skills. A game feels deeper to me when I have to strategize depending on the encounters I'm about to face. There should be a good marriage of strategy (which abilities to have on the ready based on what will happen over the entirety of a dungeon) and tactics (using those spells during individual combat encounters effectively). It's what separates a good player from a bad one.

I shouldn't have to have lightning quick reflexes or own a g13 to excel at my class in an MMO.Nothing is more frustrating than missing a skill because I hit h instead of j while trying to reach halfway across my keyboard in the .5 second window I was allotted by the developers.I prefer a system where a player is defined by his character management as much as his raw skill at reacting to a battleand part of that is knowing what skills are good in which scenarios and knowing how to prioritize.

Inevitably when you have dozens of skills for each class and each class can use all those skills anytime they want the developers design encounters around a player always having everything. It's not too dissimilar to the initial TBC raid design. It was designed around needing every single consumable in the game simply because they were available. Instead, with a limited load out I feel developers can design around small nuances. Didn't mem your silence and instead memmed your mana tap? Your tank is going take big nuke damage, but that's ok if your wizard memmed his limited duration spell shield. If he didn't you're dead but if he did your group can defeat this encounter in a different way than another group might have.
This x1000.

I play actual FPS when I want twitch action etc. A big part of mmo's to me is being able to actually watch your entire group fighting, see how their classes interact in a group , and enjoy the experience overall without worrying about firing off macro 3 of your 7 of abilities at the precise time needed or you wipe.

Edit:

To add to Dumar's , I thoroughly enjoyed having a 2nd box up with my enchanter selling EXT KEI III for donations , I think I funded all my alts , my friends alts , and still had enough plat around to roll around in it on said gnome enchanter. (seriously though it was fun doing that , and on the other end , just giving out SoW and Chloro in the East commons to low level folks , sometimes I would just run around and do that all night on the druid)
 

Valderen

Space Pirate
<Bronze Donator>
4,467
2,633
I've always preferred limited set of useable skills from a large pool of skills than being able to use everything all the time. Mind you here that I am talking about "Combat Skills" specifically, I don't really mind if I have let's say 8-12 combat skills, and another unlimited amount of non-combat skill on other hotbars, like buffs, teleports, etc...
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
I don't really mind if I have let's say 8-12 combat skills, and another unlimited amount of non-combat skill on other hotbars, like buffs, teleports, etc...
A fantasy world doesn't have categories of skills or spells. The failure of WoW design wasn't just skill bloat, but it was 'we can't make this skill work well with the others now, so we'll totally retool it / put it as another category as a talent' type of bloat because they weren't good at designing systems (a class with skills) and systems that work together (groups of classes, each with skills) over time. The best proof of this is the WoW paladin.

When you keep adding more 'categories of skills' through combat/non-combat, talents, class, and you keep changing or restricting based on category, it no longer feels like a fantasy world, but statistical software. It's like a pilot flying by instrumentation. I don't want to fucking do that.

If it were up to me, you get a limited number ofabilitiesto use. How you learn these abilities could be what sets Pantheon apart, like a rogue learning some new rogue skill from a far-off npc, or a wizard learning a spell from a book in the bottom of a dungeon. But don't make categories and sub-categories of these abilities, each with different restrictions and requirements.

You have 15 slots. You have an ability book full of abilities. That's it. Choose, bitch.
 

Fubarbox_sl

shitlord
84
0
Agreed. If we do something like this, it has to be done carefully and *meaningfully*. We want the feedback of players who are already drawn to the game. We don't need feedback from people who don't like the game and just want to change it into something else (WoW, etc.) Gathering that kind of data doesn't help anyone. Nor should any of you worry that suddenly a big group of people pop up on our message boards, demanding we fundamentally change the game, and we listen to them. That's simply not going to happen.
Perhaps this is something you can offer in private forums after the KS is over. That way you are getting feedback from a dedicated group of people that most likely share in your desire to correct the direction that modern mmos have unfortunately taken?

As far as the spells and ability question...Please give us a pool of many options if you want, but limit the loadout we can bring to something like 10 or maybe 15. I am really tired of the 40 button whack a mole/play the UI systems. I much prefer the newer games like GW2 or TSW where you have a limited number of skills available, but you can strategically pick from a vast amount. I find that in these games I can easily memorize and strategize with the abilities I choose to bring. In turn I am playing the game, concentrating on the encounters, and not playing UI whack a mole. For me this is a much more immersive and enjoyable experience. One other thing that is very important is to get movement/animation right. Love or hate the game, I really like how movement/dodging feels in a game like GW2.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
Yes, Brad's major challenge then, is creating a player ecosystem and a requirement for interdependence in this modern, screwed up, ADD-riddled market that forces so many single-player elements.

Getting a buff as a newbie in FP or EC from higher level players is a good example of where a player begins to see this interdependence. EverQuest, by a mix of design and accident, fostered this. But just take a moment to reflect about everything involved just to get this: a level 5 necro wanting the same buff as a level 50 at the EC tunnel, SoW.

First and most obvious, making the skill available to every class by multiclassing or a unique skill system dilutes the power of the spell. So then, buffs should only be available to the most minimum of classes. And buffs that do the same thing with different names as window dressing counts towards this minimum. It has to be as exclusive as it is useful, else it will no longer be useful, but almost expected or required.

Secondly, for a utility spell like SoW, it actually has to provide utility. And what I mean is, if travel is quick and painless like WoW, if I could hop on a flying mount that I purchased in the Pantheon online store or obtained via the super exclusive dildo edition, then its utility is further diluted to near useless.

Thirdly, if these two criteria, that it's exclusive as possible & provides actual utility because the world design supports that utility, then people have to actually have areasonfor that utility. Why would you care about SoW when in combat if the death penalty is wimpy and painless? If I lose no experience dying to the young kodiak (fuck you young kodiaks), and I actually run faster than SoW as a ghost back to my corpse, what is the reason for this spell? Its utility is greatly lessened due to the screwed-up design of another mechanic, the death penalty, which goes back to the second point.

You can see that many, many factors influence one another in design. You can't have useful spells if everyone has them, the world isn't designed for them, and the penalties are so lax that it actually offsets the benefit of the damned utility in the first place.

SoW was exclusive enough by the class design, useful enough due to the world design, and provided enough benefit through other design elements like the death penalty that people actually sought it out. Those kinds of mechanics working so well together is what made EverQuest what it was.
This is a brilliant post sir.
 

Hatorade

A nice asshole.
8,200
6,632
Some procs? Hell yeah. The above? Nooo. Can you imagine the loot rolls? Everyone rolls on everything.
Fair enough, maybe make rolls on a curve so if you have more cloth on when something dies and a cloth item drops you roll higher/need it. Loot drops are lame anyhow, badge/point system preferred.
 

Fubarbox_sl

shitlord
84
0
I would like to see Vanguards Diplomacy system in the game.
The diplomacy system would be great, just like a good PVP system that included great collision detection and a crafting system that was more than an after thought. The problem is that in every game one of the overall systems seems to be trash or all of them are lacking in some way. I really think that there needs to be a core PVE game designed and then add on awesome features like Diplomacy after the fact. I will say that I would rather have a robust diplomacy system over a crafting system. Diplomacy is a system that has amazing potential and I would love to see it come to life again, if it can be done in a meaningful way.
 

Rogosh

Lord Nagafen Raider
894
230
Bring back resistance on spells and npcs. I cant recall the last time a game did just that. Bring back skeletons that only take damage from blunt weapons or at the very least bonus damage from them.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
Nothing like your snare fizzling or being resisted on the mob you are trying to kite that you know will stun and crush you if it gets a hold of you.

Yes, bring back danger.
 

Fubarbox_sl

shitlord
84
0
Nothing like your snare fizzling or being resisted on the mob you are trying to kite that you know will stun and crush you if it gets a hold of you.

Yes, bring back danger.
Oh the painful and great memories of a chat window filled with Fizzles....please bring this back. Thats one of my major problems with modern mmo design, there is no feeling of danger anymore. I can still remember times where I was in fear of my characters life. I did things differently out of a sense of respect/fear of the game world I was in. In todays game I have nothing to fear and it really does completely change how you play the game in a negative way imho. Why should I be worried to run through a zone I have never been to at night in a modern mmo...I mean its practically daylight and if I die I will just respawn close by with an insignificant slap on the wrist...
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Fair enough, maybe make rolls on a curve so if you have more cloth on when something dies and a cloth item drops you roll higher/need it. Loot drops are lame anyhow, badge/point system preferred.
We could not disagree more on looting. I will say, on the raid level, a smart rng would probably make raiders a little happier than straight rng.

@Fubar. I'd much rather have crafting. Dip was a good idea poorly executed. I'd rather have a good focused adventuring sphere than either crafting or diplomacy.
wink.png
 

Hatorade

A nice asshole.
8,200
6,632
We could not disagree more on looting. I will say, on the raid level, a smart rng would probably make raiders a little happier than straight rng.

@Fubar. I'd much rather have crafting. Dip was a good idea poorly executed. I'd rather have a good focused adventuring sphere than either crafting or diplomacy.
wink.png
Most Devs won't do smart loot because that carrot won't last as long. Trash random loot, boss=everyone gets an upgrade.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
I bet with the limited scope initially something like Diplomacy would have to a far off extended goal. And I have a feeling more would pick crafting if a choice between the two of which first. I personally don't care as not into either, I do like to gather though to sell to the crafters. Always have seemed to be fine with in game money if I gathered and sold and never crafted.
 

Lunis

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,259
1,505
What was weird was you could macro them all in to 1 key depending on your cooldowns, so it ended up feeling as though you only had one ability with different animations...kinda went both extremes. (I was a bard in VG for macro reference)
This happened because the combat system was drastically changed after most of the class abilities were already created. I believe it was towards the end of Beta 2 when the "Reactive" combat system was scrapped for a more traditional one; this is why as a Bard you had spell damage abilities not tied to your GCD. And it's also why damage values were over-inflated, the original plan was to have less hits but higher dmg... although i'm sure Brad has a lot more insight into the original design plans.
 

Fubarbox_sl

shitlord
84
0
@Fubar. I'd much rather have crafting. Dip was a good idea poorly executed. I'd rather have a good focused adventuring sphere than either crafting or diplomacy.
wink.png
I think we pretty much agree 100% on the first priority. I do not even want to consider diplomacy or crafting until I have an amazing adventuring sphere (I only include Pve in this area). Then when it comes to diplomacy, crafting , or PVP(needs collision)....one at a time, I do not care the order, just get them right before you dump a mediocre product on us. As far as diplomacy in general, I agree good idea, but needs a better and more meaningful execution. Its not perfect, but if they could find a way to make it meaningful to gameplay, I would love to have it. Especially since it has a lot of potential for a unique experience that draws you into the world. With crafting, I really like GW2 discovery system (hate their diminishing returns with gathering and quantity of items needed) It would be nice for a new crafting system to incorporate some form of discovery.