Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Endgame should never be small group dungeon play. Raiding should be raiding, and give the best risk versus reward.

All classes should have worth in the endgame, but all classes shouldn't excel in everything outside of raiding.

Solo classes shouldn't be as good in a group as a class that has to be in a group to do anything. There needs to be some penaltys for playing classes that are powerful in some aspects otherwise everyone will just play the classes that can do everything well.

And then you pretty much make another MMO where everyone is equal.


I played a Necromancer in EQ for the first 3 years. The first year they could do everything well, then as raiding came in ,and they made subtle nerfs to there abilities on mobs i.e. not being able to lifetap raid bosses, dots not stacking, pet nerfs ,and there only worth being DMF/ corpse summon+FD+Rez later they suffered in raiding.

Out of a 60 man you would only need one Necro max.

I don't agree that any class should be penalized in raiding. I do want to have some classes excel in groups, and others be better at solo play.

Equality in MMOS is one of the factors that has killed it for the last 10 years.

The point is why would anyone want to be a wizard if another class can perform better them him with the added benefit of being powerful out of a group.
There has to be some kind of balance somewhere.

I'm not advocating shitty players. If the Wizard is shit, a good necro should be able to out dps him.
What I am saying is if both players are on equal skill level the Wizard ( who needs a group) should outshine the necro ( who doesnt need a group) somewhere in the game otherwise there class shouldn't even be created.

I don't like nerfs at all, If something needs to be changed then bring the other classes up to par. If the player base has come up with something that redesigns your game then dont take it away, adjust your game to use those new ideas.

For instance, Kiting was never intended in the game.

In todays MMO, they would have just taken it away completely. Instead they should make some encounters embrace that new idea. Make it part of your game, and it evolves with the playerbase.

Ukerric_sl said:

To be correct: You need some activities that are useful available solo. The most obvious would be XP and getting craft materials, but you can include others. The idea is that, if you have time (over an hour), you can seek out a group; if you don't, you can do stuff solo.

Oh, and if you want a EQ-style stuff, then XP/crafting materials is doable solo; gear drops REQUIRES a group (and yes, that means you don't have quests that give you stuff unless those quests require also a group. If you want to solo all the time because your socially challenged, you craft your gear and buy it at the Bazaar, period. And no random green/blue/epic drops on the young direwolf you killed solo in 10s ever).

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But why is EQ style the best? Why can't there be challenging solo quest series (taking place in instances) at certain levels that reward half-decent gear? Like, every 10 levels you have some shit that gets you a new weapon tailored to your class, or a shield for shield tanks, or whatever.

Gods and Heros planned that. That would not bother me in anyway. Rezz and I talked about this. Basically we felt it would be cool if those dungeons had scenarios in them that rewarded you with an ability. We used the warrior taunt as an example.

Column_sl said:

EQ was a fluke

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That's what I think too.

I loved it and I still do, still play on eq mac. But I think that half the stuff was designed by other people other than brad, and half the stuff was just 'hope for the best'. Turns out it worked really well and a lot of gameplay emerged out of nowhere like fear kiting, quad kiting, fd splitting, aggro kiting, AoE groups, etc. etc. It was cool, but it wasn't even in the design.

I'm not even sure they understand what they made and how it was to actually play it. If they had made something else like that again, then I would give them more credit but I can't give them the benefit of the doubt because there has never been anything like EQ again. Even Vanguard, it's too structured and there is no freedom and there was nothing emergent either. So I would say EQ was a fluke. I don't think we will ever see something like that again for a long long time. The next time will be from some little indie kickstarter type who will make a true virtual world, a true mud style game but in 3d, like EQ was. Someone has to do it again, and one of them has to be a big success. Only then will the big budget devs look at making something like that. Until then, they will stick to their shitty disney theme parks.

Game play aside.. I don't think things like clickies for instance in EQ were a mistake. It's weird seeing people not give Brad any credit for EQ but not actually know what his full role was ha.

Well none of us really know what he did. There was also Steve Clover and Bill Trost but other people involved too. Brad just seems to be the figurehead but I am just sceptical of whether he deserves the bulk of the credit. I would give him more if I liked Vanguard but I just don't. It has cool classes and a great world (which has more or less nothing to do with brad), but I dislike almost everything else about it. Maybe this time he will do better.

None of those game were everyone is equal are working anyway, people max out the content in a week get bored then leave.

Even WoW when it started wasn't everyone could participate at equal levels.


The Devs are just retreading the same shit everytime to make everyone happy, when they should realize no one is ever fucking happy.
The people that made EQ created the game they wanted to play, not the game that the masses wanted.

The masses don't know what they want, you have to tell them, and they follow like sheep.

Column_sl said:

There were no patch notes back then, everything was hidden.

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lolwat

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches.html

All the way back to April 1999.

I don't understand why no one is interested in making EverQuest again.
We see many almost exact imitations of games like WoW, StarCraft/Dune2, Diablo...etc but no one really wants to copy EverQuest.

Just do something like EverQuest; I know I will play the game. I know many others will. Who cares about the neckbeards of this forum who doesn't like it. I don't like Call of Duty and I don't care for it yet there's an audience for that. Good for those who like it.

What I'm looking for is:
First person view
No GPS maps (or maps at all)
Harsh PvE content (monsters don't die in 5 seconds)
Slow Paced combat system ("tick" based like that of EQ)
Resource Management approach to combat challenges instead of the twitchy whack-a-mole approach or the recent "action" combat.
Down times.
Itemization like EQ (I don't want to see Green, Blue, Purple generic itemization crap).
Ability to attack every NPC.
Faction System.
No Instances or very limited ones.
Night is dark / required light source for areas not lit.
Role Based Class System (Tank, Healer, CC, DPS, Puller, Debuffer...etc)
Plenty of races and different starting areas.
Plenty of Dungeons. Non Linear Dungeons. Huge dungeons with traps.
Group encouraged.
Death Penalty.
A mixture of Leveling and Skill system (bring back spell skills and fizzling, alcohol tolerance, combat skills, Sense Heading, languages and expand on this)
Camping (I want to camp for a named)
Grinding, NO WoW-style quests.
Quests should not be shoved in your face and they shouldn't always give experience as reward (in other words Quests are not THE game and they are not how you progress. Just like EQ quests are just..... Quests).
Epic Quest
NPCs should never be leashed (bring back trains)


The above list just to name a few....
Make a new game like that and I know I will be happy.

Itzena_sl said:

lolwat

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches.html

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Do you even read what you post??

This is the only changes in 2 years?? haha. Did you even play EQ in 1999, I would say not

Not to mention there is almost no class changes on there which is what the discussion was about...
Cant believe I have to spell out everything for you since you know nothing of context.
We were discussing Class changes, and I said that most of that was hidden, and not in a patch note.

All i remember was overarching game changes, like the below examples, and stuff like casters no longer have to use there spellbook to mediatate.




Patches from January 2000 - June 2000


- Plane of Sky is introduced (Jan.)
- Casters respawn with no mana after being killed by a player (Feb. 3)
- City of Paineel is introduced (Feb. 17)
- Erudites can now be Shadowknights (Feb. 17)
- Rogues get the Evade ability (Feb. 17)
- Deity-specific items are introduced (Apr. 10)
- Kerra Ridge and Splitpaw are revamped to higher level (Apr. 10)
- Kunark goes live with a new level cap of 60 (Apr. 21)
- Newbie guards get buffed to their current levels (May)
- The Hole is introduced (June 22)
- Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen are no longer attackable by players over 52nd level


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Patches from April 1999 - December 1999


- Original patch information (April)
- PvP Melee/Caster balance (Sept. 13)
- Rez timers set (Sept. 28)
- Temple of Solusek Ro added as an optional zone (Oct. 13)
- Journeyman Boots become quested (Oct. 13)
- Press release details upcoming Kunark expansion (Nov. 1)

No, there were always patch notes.

They just weren't well documented at first. They'd make wide fucking generalizations like, "Various changes to the Shadowknight class" at first. It didn't take very long for them to start getting more and more specific.

And of course not every change was documented. My jboots got slower every patch. But that's not "hidden patches". That's just devs being lazy and disorganized when it comes to documentation.

So I mean the whole schtick comes down to "devs used to suck even worse than they do now, and that's why the games were better".

For the first few years there were barely any class changes documented it was all hidden, lazy ,or not.

Thats why every Overarching game change they would make the druids grove would go crazy saying that SOW was nerfed.

Iannis_sl said:

So I mean the whole schtick comes down to "devs used to suck even worse than they do now, and that's why the games were better".

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They used to have no skills... Now they just have no passion. Awesome.

Column_sl said:

Do you even read what you post??

This is the only changes in 2 years?? haha. Did you even play EQ in 1999, I would say not

Not to mention there is almost no class changes on there which is what the discussion was about...
Cant believe I have to spell out everything for you since you know nothing of context.
We were discussing Class changes, and I said that most of that was hidden, and not in a patch note.

All i remember was overarching game changes, like the below examples, and stuff like casters no longer have to use there spellbook to mediatate.



Patches from January 2000 - June 2000


- Plane of Sky is introduced (Jan.)
- Casters respawn with no mana after being killed by a player (Feb. 3)
- City of Paineel is introduced (Feb. 17)
- Erudites can now be Shadowknights (Feb. 17)
- Rogues get the Evade ability (Feb. 17)
- Deity-specific items are introduced (Apr. 10)
- Kerra Ridge and Splitpaw are revamped to higher level (Apr. 10)
- Kunark goes live with a new level cap of 60 (Apr. 21)
- Newbie guards get buffed to their current levels (May)
- The Hole is introduced (June 22)
- Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen are no longer attackable by players over 52nd level


spacer

Patches from April 1999 - December 1999


- Original patch information (April)
- PvP Melee/Caster balance (Sept. 13)
- Rez timers set (Sept. 28)
- Temple of Solusek Ro added as an optional zone (Oct. 13)
- Journeyman Boots become quested (Oct. 13)
- Press release details upcoming Kunark expansion (Nov. 1)

Click to expand...

Try clicking on the links, genius.

Regardless that furthers my point that there werent many nerfs in the first few years of Everquest to classes.

if you click on the 1999 patch notes its almost all we fixed spells to acutelly work

Al ot of this mess could be fixed with having no pvp, or pvp with separate rule sets. I could do without it personally, but companies want the extra revenue from pvp subs.