Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Please don't make that world.
I like mounts, they just shouldn't be in at level 10 (or Pantheon equivalent) as they were in VG.

There has to be a feeling of vertical and horizontal power progression
For non-SOW/Teleport classes movement progression is: JBoots then Mounts. They just shouldn't take away the importance of Bard run speed or teleports.

Given the reward tier of mounts in the kickstarter, I'll assume they're in :)
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
I personally like the Brotherhood system. Mentoring makes players feel like they have to slum it and repeat content and basically be held back by their friends. Scaling everyone to a zone's level is, I hope, not even being discussed for this game. Imo the best solution is to let the friends who play more help their friends be pulled forward and allow twinking/PLing. And who cares if I level an alt or buff/port bot on a second account.
wink.png


What other options are there? Or should your friends who can't play as often just be shit out of luck?
I think twinking/power leveling was probably the most organic solution to this problem. It had two big benefits, aside from it's simplicity in the world. The first being that it created a great economic market for older items, and second hand items. I know Brad said there will be systems to remove old items from the game through quests and such--but the market for those "less than tier top tier but still good" items should still be robust, which is great in games, because it helps keep less than top tier dungeons alive and valuable.

The second big benefit is a social one. You never really saw how far you've come until you've gone back with your powerful character and helped a friend do something. Self sufficiency in the modern MMO has pretty much eliminated the need for this. But in older games, this was an aspect that was both fun, and yeah, sometimes annoying. I mean, having to "waste" time running into a dungeon to help your friend CR or PL him might suck, but it was also fun going back to place that kicked your ass, and feeling like a super hero for your buddy. That contrast in power, or creating situations that not only show differences in progression but socially reward them (As in, you get praise from another player for helping)--is severely lacking in games where time accessibility has made sure to limit the need, or even effect, for/of outside support. And I say "effect of", because it's gotten to the point where help from another player, in many cases, can be a huge hindrance to the speed at which you level--because the systems are so meticulously designed around just you.

Now, there are problems with this, too. The TLC and required level bullshit was put in just to deal with those problems. For all the fun behind twinking and helping your friends, there was a dark side to it. It absolutely sucked, as a lower level, to go down into a camp and find it taken by one high end douche bag--preventing your experience gains AND getting level appropriate loot. I know most of us said camping those items was cool, and it was, but it was also really disruptive to game play. Whatever design comes up, needs to think of a way toalleviatethe bad effects of that. But itshouldn'tbe removed, which is what instancing and required levels did. Playersshouldbristle against other players, it's part of interacting.

I'd prefer to see it tackled the way Brad mentioned the "path of least resistance should also be best". Offer alternatives to low level camps, that give higher end players more choices to progress but maybe giving up some better progression for a shot at using less people for some safer loot. For example, and outdoor zone with high value but ultra rare drops, whose mobs also give experience? Might make it more appealing to get experience while getting a drop that can be traded for the low end one. Little design choices like that, which give alternatives that are more appealing, rather than punishing people or eliminating the camp mechanic, would, in my opinion, be a better option.

Sorry rambled there--but it can be crazy remembering how many other systems old mechanics, like open dungeons and twinking (No bound equip), touch on. Which is why I like the fact that they've said they are staying focused on a small set of systems. A lot of these older systems were taken out because of just how complex they really are in terms of how many other systems they affect.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
I like mounts, they just shouldn't be in at level 10 (or Pantheon equivalent) as they were in VG.

There has to be a feeling of vertical and horizontal power progression
For non-SOW/Teleport classes movement progression is: JBoots then Mounts. They just shouldn't take away the importance of Bard run speed or teleports.

Given the reward tier of mounts in the kickstarter, I'll assume they're in :)
I don't know how they'll be implemented, but I'm very, very skeptical of them. There's no real way to do them right that doesn't take away from other parts of the game, from class interdependence to world design. If I can use the reward mount from level 1, then that is a massive disappointment.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
Do we need a mentoring system if power leveling is allowed?

Edited to add: I'll be in for at least $250 later today when I get off work.
 

Pasteton

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,608
1,718
Found a cool summary of the game. I wordsmithed it a bit.

"Pantheon is a harsh and difficult high fantasy MMORPG with old-school sandbox elements, plenty of lore and exploration, a focus on grouping, and clearly differentiated classes-but peppered with modern improvements, like a more action/reaction-based combat system."
The first half is great - the second half isnt what i'd call a 'modern improvement'. It's going to be very same-ish to a lot of other arcadey mmo's unless a lot of care is taken to make it different but also enjoyable. I don't see why we cant slow things down a bit. And I dont mean autoattack and go afk like eq, i mean make an mmo with a quasi turn-based functionality, so you can employ strategy.

Current 'modern' mmo gameplay - 'fireball coming at my feet, dodge left, then dodge back right to avoid incoming lasers'

Potential pantheon gameplay (hopefully) - mob has abilities a thru l, you have abilities m thru z , now you have to figure out what is the best manner of using the resources you have at hand to overcome the mob. Fights should work like a game of chess, with easy/trash mobs being simple fights and difficult mobs being more like taking on kasparov.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
I don't know how they'll be implemented, but I'm skeptical of them. If I can use the reward mount from level 1, then that is a massive disappointment.
I'll agree with this - the reward mount should have a required level limitation. But then I feel the same thing about the item rewards if the ring is any good it shouldn't be immediately accessible.

Arguably, Visionary shouldn't give you the items or mounts at all - instead they should be quested, with the quest only available to those who bought the rewards.
 

calla_sl

shitlord
202
0
I don't know how they'll be implemented, but I'm very, very skeptical of them. There's no real way to do them right that doesn't take away from other parts of the game, from class interdependence to world design. If I can use the reward mount from level 1, then that is a massive disappointment.
i like mounts as a reward for a long quest line. the first few times going from point a to b might be full of danger and excitement, but after the novelty wears off, its really annoying spending half your play time traveling.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
i like mounts as a reward for a long quest line. the first few times going from point a to b might be full of danger and excitement, but after the novelty wears off, its really annoying spending half your play time traveling.
rrr_img_56932.jpg
 

Grumpus

Molten Core Raider
1,927
223
Mounts should be as rare as the Phoenix mount in WoW and only from difficult tasks. Maybe with a few seats for your friends to ride along on.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
I would be especially cautious about how you handle mounts.

Mounts also eliminate much of the danger in the world, which is HUGE, absolutely huge. When you can outrun sand giants and spectre trains by clicking your mount, it cheapens the impact the world can have on your character - and thus your attachment to it. And eventually, the overworld would likely become a big silent place full of players doing their own thing, in a group or solo. It will become full of people running around on mounts, not talking because there's no reason to: there's no train inc to docks, there's no Sgt. Slate to tunnel, there's no gryphon spotted at orc camp2. None of that matters because everyone can outrun them.

Please don't make that world.
I think, as you mentioned, this wasn't a problem with mounts but rather how they were handled. Being able to whistle one into existence whenever made them essentially a buff every character had. If instead mounts were iterated from the UO system, where they were part of the world, and could die or would need upkeep and say, wouldn't go into dungeons so they'd need stables and all sorts of other overhead--they could actually be a mechanic that would be used in a more discriminate fashion, like say only for long range travel.

I feel like there are a million ways to iterate on the concept of mounts that were never explored because they essentially became a "buff with graphics". Fun ways, too. Even ways that promote social interaction (Like having to buy your mount from a druid or ranger---because they have the ability to find them, and train them, from the wild). Lots of cool areas there that were never explored because it became popular to view mounts as a specific type of mechanic that only offered benefits, rather than pros and cons.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
But you have to keep in mind, from the first time you possibly encountered a SG or gryphon in EQ, say around levels 10-15, they were dangerous for a LONG time after, until the late 30's/mid 40's. So you had this huge amount of time where you had to be weary and alert when traveling in the world - which is what made SoW so valuable, and in turn, partly what made EC tunnel what it was.

At any point in that leveling process, had you got a mount the way they were implemented in WoW, say at level 20, then all of that additional time that was once dangerous would've been mitigated almost completely. A level 20 would feel no threat from a SG anymore with his new quest mount.

THAT'S the problem.

@Lithose: Yes, implementation is huge. Designing mounts without taking away from that class interdependency/world-is-dangerous spiel that's right on the Kickstarter page is a damned monumental challenge.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
How about:

  • Reward- and early Mounts: +20% runspeed
  • J-Boots: +30%
  • SoW(low level iteration): +35%
  • Bard Selo(gets better with higher level instruments): 45%
  • High level Mount: 50%
  • Higher level run-spells: 55% and up


And so forth. Also, SoW should work on a mounted player, so that a player on a low level mount would get boosted up tp 35%.

Also, when Pantheon mounts will have the same annoying start-up acceleration as in EQ, I can assure you that most people will still prefer SoW, SoE and Selo's.
smile.png
 

Pasteton

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,608
1,718
I just wanted to add - please no mob calibers based on arbitrary categories of 'solo', 'elite/group' etc. Mobs should have a broader spectrum of difficulty including damage, health, etc and not just be portioned off into neatly balanced categories. Let players figure out and use some common sense, and adjust to the world as it is. (a couple kobolds or an orc off the side of the road, probably soloable. A giant fuckin wooly mammoth? maybe that should take a few people).

Also, no game since eq has done mob 'social' ai as right as eq did and i dont know why (and even eq didnt do it right all the time). Why did eq2, wow and every mmo since have mobs either always come solo (boring and unrealistic) or come in unsplittable groups (also unrealistic and annoying). Please bring back 'splitting' as a strategy (doesnt have to be just monks, remember harmony in eq? this can be explored in further ways as well). If I attack a mob at a table surrounded by its buddies, they should all come. It's fucking dumb when they dont. If I attack a deer in a herd of deer, then the rest should run away. Again, common sense more often than not leads to better immersion/belieavable game world. If i have abilities like feign death, or harmonize, or blinding a mob, or fearing its buddies, etc, then I can figure out how to handle that horde of enemies without the mmo world deciding their behavior for them.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
That was a great spell! I think, when properly thought through, Mounts, Run-speedspells, cool runspeeditems and playerinterdependency can live nicely together.

Giving players a level 1, +75% runspeed, instant acceleration Mount would be a big mistake off course.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
@Lithose: Yes, implementation is huge. Designing mounts without taking away from that class interdependency/world-is-dangerous spiel that's right on the Kickstarter page is a damned monumental challenge.
Yeah, true. Just brain storming but what if mounts could die very easily AND they start off kind of weak--so when you first get them, they have a low run speed increase and low endurance. So it can only be used, say, 10 minutes each in game day, then you need to walk it for a bit (Which makes it vulnerable--get ready for Atrax in the swamp of sadness)). There would be mechanics in game to level the mount, to slightly increase it's move speed, and increase the amount of time it could be used in game before it got tired ect. However, if it died, you'd need a druid, or shaman to either res them, or use a resser in town which means you'd lose a lot of "horse experience" (heh.)

I wonder how much class interaction that would initiate, having someone desperately trying to resurrect Mr. Ed? Also, because of the low endurance, people would still plan around buffs until they were far higher level. And because horses could be killed, people would have to plan trips with them between stables--because bringing them to a dungeon and having them die would be a huge investment loss.

Heck, maybe even have it so druid and rangers had a spell that would allow them to stable a pet at the nearest town, or call a pet from a stable at the nearest town. "Animal Whispering", or something. So if you had a ranger or druid in group, you wouldn't have to stop at the inn/stables before heading to a dungeon, you could have them just stable it ect.

All kinds of ways I can think of that would actually increase class interdependence while using mounts. And because they'd be pretty expensive (IE hard for druids/rangers to go out find, and train)--they'd be a higher end item, and even if they were on a low level toon, the low endurance and what not would keep them from eliminating danger permanently. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'd be super excited to design a new mount system if I were a developer. Really make it alive in the world, make horses a little more realistic, so the players have a lot more attachment to them.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
I just wanted to add - please no mob calibers based on arbitrary categories of 'solo', 'elite/group' etc. Mobs should have a broader spectrum of difficulty including damage, health, etc
Yes, please add this to the list if not already present: no discrete qualifiers of mob difficulty. I don't mind /con, but no icons that discretely qualify if I should attack a mob or not.
 

Daelos

Guarding the guardians
219
58
At the moment, Pantheon has 80 levels.
At current funding of $111,000, we're about a blue bubble into level 11.

Time to move from the OC1 in EC into Orc Highway in Oasis!

Edit: Pledge updated $45 -> $250