Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Utnayan_sl said:

Brad already falsified some information in the first 2 pages of when he came back to post here (He stated they didn't go with Hero Engine because they couldn't have access to the source code. Wrong. He can have access to the source code. He doesn't want to pay 7% of revenues. Just say that. It's time to be transparent for God's sake)

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I noted that - I'm not implying ill intention (yet) because it might just be a slip up. It's worth pointing out though.

Since 800k dont build an MMO (nor the 2-3mill we used as a benchmark for the last 6 months), some kind of publisher has to come into the picture. Imo the one obligation VR has to the backers is to make sure that whatever contract they enter into with that publisher clearly secures the design goals of the project, to prevent turning it into another WoW clone once the ink is dry. So the question then becomes is that possible? Does Brad gain enough leverage or is there any publisher that will not chase the WoW dream?

Mr Creed_sl said:

I noted that - I'm not implying ill intention (yet) because it might just be a slip up. It's worth pointing out though.

Since 800k dont build an MMO (nor the 2-3mill we used as a benchmark for the last 6 months), some kind of publisher has to come into the picture. Imo the one obligation VR has to the backers is to make sure that whatever contract they enter into with that publisher clearly secures the design goals of the project, to prevent turning it into another WoW clone once the ink is dry. So the question then becomes is that possible? Does Brad gain enough leverage or is there any publisher that will not chase the WoW dream?

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i posted about this too.. I think its really based on how far the KS gets them. The more backers/money the easier it is for Brad to say this is our vision and the KS proves it's what the players want. All the people on the sidelines or waiting to buy the game when it releases is their right of course but it's making this process harder early on.

I have no doubt about the desire for a game like this in the market but it will obviously have be released to see it's full potential. It will be good for them later but right now it's making things rough.

Pyros_sl said:

They have 4 as stretch goals, and already talked about one class that will be in the game. I think they have it done already, it's just probably going to be fairly limited, more so than I'd like. Warrior, Cleric(that's the one they talked about already), Mage/Sorc/Wizard, Thief/Rogue/Assassin, Illusionist/Enchanter, Necromancer. That's probably the core. Druid, Ranger, Monk and Bard are stretch goals so it's fair to assume they won't have classes that are too similar directly in the game(so no Archer/Shaman/Disciple kind of thing). That leaves a lot of stuff unused though, so I don't know. It would just seem weird to have Blood Mage or Shadowknight when missing core stuff like what's on the stretch goals. Maybe specific abilities and shit would let you make your existing mage/warrior chars into these variants.

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I honestly think they put those classes there to motivate people to fund.. I'm betting they have every intention of trying to get them in at launch regardless but need something to motivate people.. Personally I'd rather they add all the classes and find other stretch goals but maybe they didn't think they would be as desirable? Hopefully they get it worked out next week.

Convo_sl said:

I honestly think they put those classes there to motivate people to fund.. I'm betting they have every intention of trying to get them in at launch regardless but need something to motivate people.. Personally I'd rather they add all the classes and find other stretch goals but maybe they didn't think they would be as desirable? Hopefully they get it worked out next week.

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So you're telling me they are trying to finagle money out of us for no apparent use? You are literally saying they are lying to us about their KS goals and that they are utilizing shady business practices.

Khane_sl said:

So you're telling me they are trying to finagle money out of us for no apparent use? You are literally saying they are lying to us about their KS goals and that they are utilizing shady business practices.

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lol if that's how you want to look at it but you know that's not what I mean.. or you could just read the FAQ and draw your own conclusion...

Convo_sl said:

lol if that's how you want to look at it but you know that's not what I mean.. or you could just read the FAQ and draw your own conclusion...

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No, you're just too blinded to realize exactly what you just said. What you said means exactly what I wrote about. If they are putting up stretch goals just to motivate people to spend more money even though those stretch goals are going to be a core part of the game they are lying to us to get money they don't need to be held accountable for.

And you are OK with such a shitty, shady business practice

FYI I know that you were just using conjecture and that we have no way of knowing what they are actually doing with the KS or the money, just saying if that's really actually what they were doing it should be alarming to each and every one of you.

Treesong_sl said:

When you look at a few other MMO kickstarters you will see that the last couple of days are always huge. Has to do with people holding out till last; an extra incentive can be because existing pledge-tiers get added extra rewards, like this update PFO did 3 days before the end:Pathfinder Online: A Fantasy Sandbox MMO by Goblinworks Inc. Kickstarter

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Yea But I don't see the project being able to get $500k in 2-3 days. This thing is trending downward fast.

Mr Creed_sl said:

I noted that - I'm not implying ill intention (yet) because it might just be a slip up. It's worth pointing out though.

Since 800k dont build an MMO (nor the 2-3mill we used as a benchmark for the last 6 months), some kind of publisher has to come into the picture. Imo the one obligation VR has to the backers is to make sure that whatever contract they enter into with that publisher clearly secures the design goals of the project, to prevent turning it into another WoW clone once the ink is dry. So the question then becomes is that possible? Does Brad gain enough leverage or is there any publisher that will not chase the WoW dream?

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I think a clear definition needs to be determined as to what is a 'wow clone', since it seems there are many variations. Is it simply by leveling via quest hubs? Instancing (Brad did say in rare occasions there may be some of this)? Yellow exclamation point? Also, I think a publisher would need to see significant interest, not just 800k worth to invest in something like this. Is this idea that once the 800k barrier is past, that the floodgates of crowdfunding will open to raise millions more?

200k first&last week
133k weeks in between
should be doable, if they can keep up the momentum they are starting to build (i have a feeling that word of mouth is just starting to spread through the community)

Khane_sl said:

No, you're just too blinded to realize exactly what you just said. What you said means exactly what I wrote about. If they are putting up stretch goals just to motivate people to spend more money even though those stretch goals are going to be a core part of the game they are lying to us to get money they don't need to be held accountable for.

And you are OK with such a shitty, shady business practice

FYI I know that you were just using conjecture and that we have no way of knowing what they are actually doing with the KS or the money, just saying if that's really actually what they were doing it should be alarming to each and every one of you.

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What? They are trying to get a game funded dude.. I think you're trying to make more out of this than there is... What's a better business practice, them trying to add the ranger regardless of it meeting its goal or them saying fuck it! they didn't hit the stretch goal.. rangers are out! It's their game, they want all that shit in and will add it as soon as they can but if you want successful stretch goals met, you need to add some shit of value that won't damage the game if they don't make it in time.. Personally I think they will do as much as they can to get all the classes in. I don't find anything shady about b/c if they do run into $$ issues it gives them areas to cut without ever breaking a promise.

Vandyn_sl said:

... Is this idea that once the 800k barrier is past, that the floodgates of crowdfunding will open to raise millions more?

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StarCitizen has done it, not a good comparison i know, but it is doable in principle. I guess a lot of peolpe would pledge if they knew the game is actually funded and in development and has an alpha/beta you can buy in and start playing right away.

Convo_sl said:

What? They are trying to get a game funded dude.. I think you're trying to make more out of this than there is... What's a better business practice, them trying to add the ranger regardless of it meeting its goal or them saying fuck it! they didn't hit the stretch goal.. rangers are out! It's their game, they want all that shit in and will add it as soon as they can but if you want successful stretch goals met, you need to add some shit of value that won't damage the game if they don't make it in time.. Personally I think they will do as much as they can to get all the classes in. I don't find anything shady about b/c if they do run into $$ issues it gives them areas to cut without ever breaking a promise.

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Wow... just wow. I don't even know what to say to you.

If you were about to purchase a car from a dealership and heated seats were included by the manufacturer in the price quote but they then told you if you want heated seats you have to pay an extra $1500 you are literally saying that's OK. You would have gotten those heated seats either way, they just lied to you to get more money. No problem there?

Anyway this conversation is silly. We are arguing about hypotheticals.

From what Brad's said, if I had to guess---this is what's happening. Right now, due to the big cuts at a lot of studios, there is a lot of talent out there with MMO experience that are unemployed (Going off what someone surrounding this said). Also--most likely because the pressure from the phone/browser market and the increasing number of surveys pointing to the buckets of money being made form those markets, with the simultaneous downtrend of money being made from "traditional" MMO's, traditional MMO's are becoming harder to pitch, especially a risky MMO like Brad wants to make. (Note: Traditional. There are several market reports that show "MMO's" are growing, but they count League of Legends and World of Tanks as MMOs--that's the direction the market is going.)

Anyway, there is a unique opportunity to get some fantastic talent, but without some assets in place, due to the above market problems, pitching it is probably impossible. So most likely his goal is to get the 800k in, hire a few people for well under what their normal pay grade would be thanks to market shitting on them, in return he'll promise them a share if things go well and sell them with "what have you got to lose? And haven't you always wanted to try to make this?" (I have no idea if Brad has the pull to do this, just a guess as his intent, not the reality.) Then he will begin designing assets with the express intent of wooing a publisher or returning to Kick-Starter with a far more polished product and a design team that can impress a broader array of backers.

In essence, he's probably going to use this money to bring in talent for the team, rather than win over a publisher.Thenhe is going to use the teamsproductsome time next year to go win over a publisher. Just my guess. If I were doing a risky start up, and I have talent in the field I thought would make the venture worthwhile, who could be acquired far cheaper than normal due to market conditions and my pull (Again, not sure if he has it, just saying he seems to think so) but no way to access capital, it's probably how I would play it. (Brad's intent is vague on the page, I surmise it's because of how risky this is. But he has dropped clues, like all the out of work developers ect.)

I'm not commenting on whether that's ethical or not. I'm also not saying that it's what's actually happening--Brad could be looking forVG2: More Hookers, More Blowor he could have a team of MMO saints who will work for free--I don't know. I'm just saying what I'd do if I were running a start up and had a name to exploit/connections in an industry. Again, not defending or attacking here, just my .02$ from someone who has helped get a couple risky ventures off the ground that could not secure normal lending capital. (But we didn't use Kick Starters, we used the old method of asking family )

Tauro_sl said:

StarCitizen has done it, not a good comparison i know, but it is doable in principle. I guess a lot of peolpe would pledge if they knew the game is actually funded and in development and has an alpha/beta you can buy in and start playing right away.

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I think Star Citizen is an anomaly and really not comparable since it's really looking to reintroduce a whole genre (although I guess you can make that argument here, millions of current MMO players would disagree). Even that project has got it's fair share of criticism, despite how much money it's raised.

Vandyn_sl said:

I think a clear definition needs to be determined as to what is a 'wow clone', since it seems there are many variations. Is it simply by leveling via quest hubs? Instancing (Brad did say in rare occasions there may be some of this)? Yellow exclamation point? Also, I think a publisher would need to see significant interest, not just 800k worth to invest in something like this. Is this idea that once the 800k barrier is past, that the floodgates of crowdfunding will open to raise millions more?

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Quest hub to quest hub gameplay with levels before max being mostly pointless and rush to max being the only worthwhile strategy is the defining feature. Two hardcoded factions,gear resets every tier of nearly every tier is another, tho WoW didn't do that until late in the second xpac so people talking about how they like WoW classic don't mean they like that stuff.

Personally I think the whole suits made good devs turn their indy games into mainstream shit trope is pretty tired. I think shit devs are shit devs, not good devs being handcuffed. I don't think rift was fucked cause some nameless suits handcuffed Hartsman, I think it was shit cause the guy who never fixed ability bloat or quest hub leveling pointlessness in EQ2 didn't think it was a problem in Rift either.

Thoughtlessly following old mechanics cause they used to work is whats wrong with the industry, its as wrong to make an EQ clone as it is to make a WoW clone. Things like Brad rethinking how leveling works and how abilities are slotted are what give me a tiny bit of hope.

Convo_sl said:

Why would they not give Brad the forgelight engine?

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I'm not going to stick my nose into this whole Ut mess, he's heading off the deep end with a quickness in this thread. IF Forgelight was offered Brad may have decided that Unity was the better choice due to any number of factors. It's not something we, as outsiders, will ever really know.

Khane_sl said:

You should take the time to actually read what I posted.

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btw.. I like to google pics to see what they are.. I was thinking your avatar was a celebrity or something but i found it on a tranny and creative people forum?! was that one of the trannys we had here??

Beginning Life Forums: Transgender News = Artist Spotlight: Allison Orenstein

Tuco! You duped me! You bastard!

Tuco gave me this avatar because the "dudes" name is supposedly Khane Kutzwell. Was just a random thing... or so I thought...