Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Zefah

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Lack of starting cities and the lame "resurrected hero" justification for player characters are both really disappointing, but not deal breakers for me. Especially when considering this will be a project with a smaller budget, I can understand they have to prioritize some things.
 

Zefah

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"Just kidding guys, there IS a Joey. He's part of the Chandler character. See? Innovation! Vision!"

The way they handled the entire warrior/crusader thing is so indicative of the fact there hasn't been a vision at all. Someone with a vision sees complaints and says, "You know what, I hear you guys, but we made this decision because of X, Y, and Z." Or they might say, "You know everyone, our vision was X, Y, and Z, but you all make a good point. So we're going to find a way to incorporate warriors into that vision."

What they don't do is say, "Uhhh yeah... actually, that was part of our vision all along, guys! We just didn't reveal it yet! But here it is! Yeah! See, we're thinking really far ahead!"
When did they deny there was going to be a Warrior-like tank role? Did they come out and say that?

I've been following this quite a bit, and all I remember is that the initial class list didn't have "Warrior" in it and people freaked out. Is that where you're getting this whole thing or did I miss something?
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
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I don't want the planar wasteland where everything is destroyed and there's one city left because there aren't enough art/design resources to create what was produced in 1999.

Trolls and humans hate each other. Dark elves and humans hate each other. Trolls and dark elves barely tolerate each other. If there isn't racism in this world, factions are without teeth.
This is probably going to be one of the casualties of a small budget. Your also thinking in terms of EQ lore. Whose to say that factions are based on alignment instead of race? Meaning if there are 3 or 4 'sides', you only need 3 or 4 cities.
 

JarekStorm_sl

shitlord
116
0
The planet is the result of planar collisions, how could they NOT start in the same city?
Ugh, I didn't like the lore much in the first place, and now it's fucking up the game design.

If you start in one place, rolling alts will suck, just like Rift.

This is the first truly negative thing I've heard about Pantheon so far.
 

Aeiouy_sl

shitlord
217
0
I have, I've done work for NGOs among other things as well.

If you have a language proficiency, go abroad.

Speaking of, did they mention racial/factional languages anywhere yet?
I havent heard anything about languages but I would love for that to return. Just another thing games did away with completely.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Whose to say that factions are based on alignment instead of race?
Needs to be based on both. And class.

If I pick a troll, the race should have an identity just as much as the class or whatever alignments there are. There's a reason I picked a troll, and it wasn't just the looks. Having one city diminishes the identity and reasons for choosing a race.

To get the game up and running, give each race a fucking tent, trainers, and a few vendor npcs for all I care. You can make each starting city in 1-2 days of work if you want. Halfass it in the beginning. But as a troll, don't make me mingle around other humans and dwarves at level 1.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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I don't want the planar wasteland where everything is destroyed and there's one city left because there aren't enough art/design resources to create what was produced in 1999.

Trolls and humans hate each other. Dark elves and humans hate each other. Trolls and dark elves barely tolerate each other. If there isn't racism in this world, factions are without teeth.
Meh, your position lacks nuance.

I live next to a really annoying Vietnamese family that I can't stand. Doesn't mean I'm gonna move away or not interact with them. I might not go out of my way to do them any favours though.
 

Lunis

Blackwing Lair Raider
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For instance, abilities all have a color influence based on their magical school and adding an ability to a set may require an ability of a certain color before it can be slotted.
Sounds kind of interesting, you can't just slap together 8 abilities without regard for what school of magic/combat they are in. It also makes sense from a balancing perspective, you can have a higher number of very power abilities but you might not be able to fit them all into a single set.
 

Zefah

<Gold Donor>
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I don't want the planar wasteland where everything is destroyed and there's one city left because there aren't enough art/design resources to create what was produced in 1999.

Trolls and humans hate each other. Dark elves and humans hate each other. Trolls and dark elves barely tolerate each other. If there isn't racism in this world, factions are without teeth.
I agree, man. I really hated that shit in Rift. It was actually one of the reasons that had me quit playing it sooner than later. I'll still wait and see at how Brad and co. implement this concept, though.

No fucking end of the world and last bastion of hope environment, I hope.
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Needs to be based on both. And class.

If I pick a troll, the race should have an identity just as much as the class or whatever alignments there are. There's a reason I picked a troll, and it wasn't just the looks. Having one city diminishes the identity and reasons for choosing a race.
Have they even said there will be racial divide in this game like EQ? If you only have 4-5 races, which I assume would be the case due to the budget, what's the point?
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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If you start in one place, rolling alts will suck, just like Rift.

This is the first truly negative thing I've heard about Pantheon so far.
Terrible argument.

You were in your starting zone in EQ for the first 8 levels... MAYBE. That's what? 7-9 hours gameplay? Out of how many hundreds of hours to max level?
 

Flc_sl

shitlord
121
0
When did they deny there was going to be a Warrior-like tank role? Did they come out and say that?

I've been following this quite a bit, and all I remember is that the initial class list didn't have "Warrior" in it and people freaked out. Is that where you're getting this whole thing or did I miss something?
You don't find it the least bit curious that on one day they release a class list, over the next twenty four hours there are hundreds of kickstarter comments complaining about the lack of a non-faith-based warrior class, and then the next day they release a class update that is significantly different from the previous class updates and includes a sub-class for a non-faith-based warrior? (Which doesn't match the language in the lore-based portion of the class description that they had clearly written before?)

I don't mind that they're adding class specializations, but anyone who can't see that these guys were A) totally unprepared and B) making it up as they go, is totally blind.

That isn't to say they hadn't talked about some of these ideas over the past four months, but there's a big difference between a hazy, ephemeral "vision" that's a few ideas that have been discussed and a solid, concrete vision with fully fledged design documentation showing the actionable implications of that vision.

Given that "vision" is all these guys have going for them, since they don't have any actual work to show, it's depressing that even the vision is underdeveloped and a total mess.
 

Flc_sl

shitlord
121
0
I don't think the issue is that Brad hasn't been thinking. That's not it at all. Thinking about something doesn't mean planning, though. Thinking is fun. Planning is facing reality, something I think many of us feel Brad isn't good at, and why he needs a counterpart that can pull his ideas from the atmosphere into something tangible.
Exactly. Especially since thinking without planning was the Vanguard Story. And probably would have been the EQ story as well, except for the fact that they took 90% of the actual game design from TorilMUD where it had already been a proven concept over six years.
 

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
<Prior Amod>
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Give me a break, Convo. I know you really want this game to succeed, but I've read your posts and you're a smart guy - take off the McQuaid-colored goggles.

First, when it comes to clarity of vision, EQN is in a totally different ballpark than Pantheon. In fact, Brad should have looked hard at their SOE Live presentation and taken a page from that book. Regardless of what you think about the quality of EQN's design goals and ideas, they were presented brilliantly and in crystal-clear fashion. Ponytail came out and, with great passion, stated everything he and his team thought was wrong or underdeveloped with MMOs, translated those thoughts into "pillars" of how they wanted to evolve the genre (life of consequence, destructability, changing world, and evolving the core game) and then gave a specific example of each (emergent AI, voxels, rallying calls, and multi-classing/deck building/horizontal progression.)

The ironic thing is that Brad has always attempted to associate himself with being a visionary, but the thing is, there's no vision here. Or, best case scenario (and I don't know why we'd give him the benefit of the doubt by applying a best case scenario, but whatever), he's building the vision as he goes forward. All we heard in the beginning is he wanted something like EverQuest that had a lot of grouping. That was his pitch. And, oh yeah, he's Brad McQuaid.

This is far more than just a communication problem. This is a vision problem.

Imagine if he were pitching a sitcom. This is what it would be like:

"Hey guys, I'm writing a sitcom. It's going to be like Friends, but with a bit of Seinfeld."
"Ok, what's the plot?"
"..."
"Who are the characters?"
"Let me get back to you in 48 hours... (48 hours later) Ok, so there's a Ross and a Rachel, and a Chandler, but there's no Joey."
"But we love Joey, we really want a Joey character in the show. I'm not sure if we can give you money for this since there's no Joey."
"Just kidding guys, there IS a Joey. He's part of the Chandler character. See? Innovation! Vision!"

The way they handled the entire warrior/crusader thing is so indicative of the fact there hasn't been a vision at all. Someone with a vision sees complaints and says, "You know what, I hear you guys, but we made this decision because of X, Y, and Z." Or they might say, "You know everyone, our vision was X, Y, and Z, but you all make a good point. So we're going to find a way to incorporate warriors into that vision."

What they don't do is say, "Uhhh yeah... actually, that was part of our vision all along, guys! We just didn't reveal it yet! But here it is! Yeah! See, we're thinking really far ahead!"

And that's the issue. Not that they're adding things to the game as they go along. It's that they came into this with the fucking hubris that Brad's name alone would be enough to carry it, were totally unprepared, totally vision-less (from the guys who claim vision is everything), and are now pretending that their vision is far more concrete than it actually is (see: combat update) and hoping that everyone following them is too fucking stupid or naive to notice.

They're charlatans, preying on the nostalgia of their audience.
Thing is some of these fuckers are so far gone that you could some in with a hand written note from Brad himself saying he didn't have a goddamn clue what he was doing and they still wouldn't believe you. It isn't like someone from their own fucking team already explained they weren't holding anything back they really were making it up on the fly. But whatever desperation for a new MMO is an ugly thing.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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Agreed. My biggest concern, now that I reacquainted myself with the list, is lack of tanks and healing. I guess its it no different than EQ though... Since these are stretch goals, can we count on them? Let's break it down.

Healers:
Cleric
Shaman
Druid

Tanks:
Dark Knight
Crusader
Monk

DPS:
Rogue
Wizard
Ranger

Utility:
Enchanter
Bard

Now, i'm assuming this list restructures once you bring the paths into play but at the ground level, that is where we stand i'm assuming.
Hoping they make one of the rogue, shaman and wizard specs utility, otherwise that role is way underrepresented and on a narrow flavor. I find the class selection a bit lame and them inventing two specs each only goes so far to fix it. Warrior being the prime complaint. A cavalier subclass of a crusader just doesnt scream gritty merc, still more prince in shining armor. I'm just missing more basic fighting type classes, not counting stretch goals we only have rogues and you just know that only the pirate spec will be down-to-earth, ninja spec will have all that mystic crap included.


I'm sure there are things constantly changing but let's be real here.. There is some backbone behind this project. I feel like some people want to marginalize that. Look at everything EQN polls. They said very early on that systems have not been decided or fleshed out as well. Why is this any different?
EQN can afford to run on bullshit because they arent asking for our money - the prime complaint about their media approach since this started was exactly that point, they are not publisher backed and cant advertise with bullshit like an already-paid project. That doesnt mean it's written in stone but they said like *1* day ago that they have nothing more to show. They made these changes and wrote new stuff up of course, and that's good, but dont pretend today's update been created in those 4 months in disneyland. Backbone of the project would be having these things prepared and in writing weeks ago, not rolling with the punches and adjusting class descriptions according to forum whims.

P.S. I'm only critical because I care!
 

Aeiouy_sl

shitlord
217
0
I don't want the planar wasteland where everything is destroyed and there's one city left because there aren't enough art/design resources to create what was produced in 1999.

Trolls and humans hate each other. Dark elves and humans hate each other. Trolls and dark elves barely tolerate each other. If there isn't racism in this world, factions are without teeth.
Given that resources are limited, I would rather have seven more huge dungeons than ten other starting cities. Maybe trolls are relegated to a trash yard outside of town.
 

Flc_sl

shitlord
121
0
Thing is some of these fuckers are so far gone that you could some in with a hand written note from Brad himself saying he didn't have a goddamn clue what he was doing and they still wouldn't believe you. It isn't like someone from their own fucking team already explained they weren't holding anything back they really were making it up on the fly. But whatever desperation for a new MMO is an ugly thing.
And, you know what, that's fine. I'm not unhappy that people have something they feel they can rally behind. The only question at this point is if I get to walk around with a smug little grin saying, 'I told you so' in late February or in 2017.
 

Erronius

Macho Ma'am
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post 9/11 bill was so awesome. my bha was like 1800 a month when getting my international affairs/middle eastern studies degree. anyway..

video on curse.. nice, but god damn its long
Actually sounds like an interesting degree...at one point I thought I wanted to pursue something to take me towards an org like the CSIS but that was a while ago...

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